Longliner fishing Grange Tyre Reef

[Guest]

About 20 years ago when i was a kid i remember most snapper pros had smaller 6 or 7 metre boats and theyd catch a couple hundred kgs a night. Now it seems theyve all got at least 10 metre boats with massive ice boxes and they stay out until theyve caught literally tonnes and the market gets flooded until theyre worth less than sausages.

[afishyfish 4]

[quote name="afishyfish" post=199111Maybe it's simply that the KG'sm numbers are down' date=' allowing a more than usual number of Juvenile Snapper to invade their groundsThese "excess" fish might normally succumb to natures other poulation controllers' date=' such as starvation/ predation etc [/quote'] I think it is the other way around AFF... the piranha's are denuding the bottom everywhere of feed that was otherwise there for KGW and the KGW have been keeping on moving instead of stopping and feeding over their normal haunts.. Last year a lot of KG schools were moving along the Metro coast in as much as 2 metres of water

Interesting comment Fishie. I caught a few of those kg myself and put there presence down to netting bans. Obviously somethings out of whack for this to be happening tho '

[urhookedfish 12]

I previously mentioned that 1999 & 2001 were strong year classes but it appears I was incorrect and the two strong year classes were 1991 (which has supported our fishery for many Years) and 1997.I was unable to upload the document as promised as its file size was too large.

[urhookedfish 12]

Here is an interesting Paragraph taken from "The reproductive biology and recruitment dynamics of Snapper"Does Egg Production affect recruitment?The most obvious factor that affects egg production is stock size. Intuitively, it seems that a relationship between spawning stock size and recruitment must exist, however, such relationships have been extremely difficult to demonstrate (Rothchild 1986), creating a paradox that has inspired considerable debate(Mertz and Myers 1996;Myers and Barrowman 1996;Myers et al. 1997; Gilbert 1997;Rickman et al 2000). The relationship between spawning stock size and the numbers of recruits is often considered to be obscured by pre-recruitment mortality (Cushing 1988), but other factors may affect a stocks egg production (Marshall et al 1998;Witthames and Marshall 2008). The Timing and lengh of spawning seasons, batch fecundities and spawning frequencies vary annually and must influence egg production (Hunter and Macewicz 1985). Thus fluctuations in such characteristics may cause a a population to exhibit radically different patterns of egg production between years, independent of population biomass. This could influence recruitment variation and obscure the relationship between recruitment and stock size.

[jaffa 81]

Afternoon all, you may have noticed my question to PIRSA re age of the snapps I`m seeing in the top of the gulf. There was a reason for this as I already had done a lot of research on it. My argument is this : if the fish are 6 months to a year old they are either bred this season or last, which happens to coincide with the pros from the other gulf hitting the top of this gulf (Ardrossan area). If unsustainable levels of breeding size snapps are/have been taken in the last 2 years (or even 3-5 years) how is it I`m seeing ever increasing no`s of juveniles (pinkies) in the NURSERY/HOLDING areas I have been fishing for the last 50 years. The argument just doesn`t hold water. It`s just pro-bashing,emotional hype. Long-lining is something that rec fisho`s generally would like to see stopped, but it was the same with netting, the media hype & voter pressure along with the science of the day got the effort reduced & rightly so coz the fishery was in decline, but hell it sure doesn`t seem to be now. The same irrational hype,media coverage & crap has just resulted in getting sharkfishing banned in daylight hours. The fact of the matter is someone has to supply the masses who eat fish but don`t catch it.The pros are an easy target for everyone to take aim at & everyone has an opinion but be objective,un-biased,produce the evidence, don`t just get all emotional & jump on the bandwagon with no justification. Most pros are doing the right thing, it`s their living,they have their futures/families to consider, some bad eggs don`t make the whole lot rotten. THEY ARE IN MOST CASES ONLY DOING WHAT THEY ARE ALLOWED TO DO WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF THE LAW,CAN`T BLAME THEM FOR DOING WHAT THEY`VE PAID LARGE SUMS OF MONEY TO THE GOV`T FOR THE PRIVILEGE/RIGHT TO DO CAN WE. All I`m saying is there are always 2 sides to the coin & lots of people talk thru` their hat on forums like this one. Don`t want to "finger/point out" individuals but lets have a bit more rational argument, happy to look at anything that disproves/questions my thinking on this topic. Cheers all.

[urhookedfish 12]

Hi Jaffa,Its clear that a record number in tonnes was taken last year from Upper St Vincents gulf around Ardrossan.Clearly the numbers of mature fish would have significantly dwindled? We are not saying that last years commercial catch left absolutely no more mature breeding size fish left to reproduce, but if this size catch was to continue to happen there would not be many mature fish left to breed in the next few years.Snapper take considerable numbers of years to reach what we regard as big fish in SA ie 7kilo plus. Other states like victoria there fish are on average 2-4kg. To grow to 7kg plus here it takes approx 8-10years I believe.My previous post has shown that a number of factors such as a prolonged spawning period (ie a period where spawning temps are suitable for longer), can produce a strong year class and some factors have clearly been responsible for this as you have witnessed in the upper Gulf of St Vincent, but just because there are good numbers of juvenile Snapper around does not mean that the Snapper fishery is not in Danger. We need to take extreme caution from this point forward or we will have a situation like Victoria where Snapper stocks where demolished and it took approximately 5years to re-sustain it through reduced bag limits and smaller legal lengths. I for one would not want to see that happen here.PIRSA would not initiate a Daily Commercial Catch Limit if they felt this amount of fishing effort could be sustained. We cannot continue to have this number of breeding fish pulled from the Biomass for the next few years. In as little as 3 years the only fish you could be catching could be those 6" fish and then you would need to wait upwards of 5years just for them to reach 5kilo.I completely understand that as a PRO you need to make a living. I can assure you I am not emotionally beating this up. This is why in the latest Snapper options paper I requested a reduction of the commerical daily trip limit from 800kg to 500kg as I feel this is a more sustainable figure which will ensure the Snapper fishery remains first class for years to come.Brett

[jackblack86 5]

With a reduced catch weight wouldn't the pros fetch a better price for their fish? Supply and demand.....

[jaffa 81]

@ URH, you still are missing my point, if juvenile no`s are at record levels when record catches have been taken from this gulf does that not prove it is sustainable. By the way I haven`t been a commercial fisherman for about 25 years. The stated aim of Fisheries is to "maximise the resource" which also means make the most money for the state, allow commercial fishermen to catch as many fish as is possible to keep prices down to the (voting) public whilst not ruining/trashing the available stocks. If the fishery goes back into decline then yes make changes again, but I just don`t see it in decline at present. You are talking about restricting what people are allowed to earn here. Catch limits set across the board cannot work. A 50 footer with a catch limit of 500 kg /day wouldn`t break even on the day if the price achieved at auction for the fish was low. Yes the number of mature fish was diminished but is it unsustainable. From my own experience/observation it is. So long as most of the juvi`s I`m seeing reach sexual maturity to breed then I can`t see a problem. Fishermen whether commercial or reco don`t have the luxury of picking what takes the bait so I can`t see that all the commercial tonnage can be big fish, how many were just legal? Can`t see how all the "big" fish are necessarily being taken. I`ve read countless reports on how long it takes them to grow "big" & it varies a lot depending on food availability,biomass in an area etc,etc. Constant whingeing by ppl with no evidence to back up their argument destroys credibility IMO,& eventually leads to these people having their arguments ignored/discounted, not having a go at you either mate,just some of the crap that is written on forums, like the "fact" that pros from interstate are fishing here & pros are setting 2000 hooks a night, just hype. I`ve been both sides of the fence, so just putting the other side of the coin/a different perspective out there. Cheers.

[urhookedfish 12]

Hi Jaffa, Im sorry to disagree again, but I think (as a lot of us have been saying) that its you who is missing the most simplest but important of points, and that is that a good year class (similar to the one you are witnissing in the top of the gulf at the moment), does not prove that there is a sustainable number of mature fish which produced them. what it most likely proves is that many environmental conditions only were right for many many eggs to successfully hatch out from embrios.There are millions of eggs produced each year by fish as small as 30cm (sexually mature). If just the eggs from the 30cm fish all hatched out, you would have the same result as what you are seeing now. My previous post on 'does egg production affect recruitment' shows this. But we cannot rely on a small biomass getting favourable spawning conditions to support the fishery. We need a large Biomass with many eggs so even if conditions arent that favourable we will still get satisfactory recruitment.You do however make some valid points regarding the workability of the Daily Catch Limit but once my first point is understood, you will see that Daily Catch Limit reductions MUST be put in place now and not later. I also agree that there is a lot of hype and total sprook seen regarding Pro fisherman. I am also still debating in my own head if it should be Kosha for a Pro to be long lining the GTR and at this point Im not sure. Because as you say at the end of the day a Pro needs to find fish. If the pro was to fish the GTR though they would have to be extremely carefull not to cause problems to the other rec anglers.I guess there is also the fact that what you call sustainable and what I call sustainable could be completely different. ie I want to see this remain a state in which you can see 14kilo captures. I dont want to have to be limited to catching fish of 60cm because we had accidentally fished out all of the fish recruited in 1991. We need to be ultra carefull or the days of trophy fish could quickly turn into days of the past. :pinch:

[jaffa 81]

I`m definitely not missing the point, I said I have seen numbers of juvi snapps increasing for the last 5 years & I don`t believe the fishery is in danger. Five years ago, yes, but not now.@ jackblack86, not necessarily. This is how it used to work when I was commercial. Fish auctions were held every weekday morning & when you had fish to sell you could take `em direct to fishmongers & sell for cash at a fixed (usually lower price). If you wanted to have them auctioned & hopefully get a higher price you deposited your fish in the Safcol cold room the night before by a certain time in order for them to be auctioned the following day. If a semi full of snapps (tonnes) arrived after you deposited your fish, well, by laws of supply & demand you got less, sometimes you got robbed blind. Buyers will not bid when there is a glut of a particular species on the auction room floor. SO FISHERMEN HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT THEY GET PAID ON THE DAY, AND THEY PAY A FIXED AUCTIONEERS FEE OF 11%(That`s what it used to be when I finished anyway), NO MATTER WHAT PRICE YOU GOT FOR YOUR FISH. There is no way to know when you drop off your fish how many other fish will turn up. Sometimes if the cold room was full when I got there & I thought the price would be down I`d take `em home again & sell the next day for cash. NO - ONE WANTS TO SEE `EM SOLD AT PET FOOD PRICES, BUT ONCE AGAIN THE BLOKE IN THE MIDDLE HAS ALL THE CONTROL, NOT THE FISHERMAN. Cheers all.

[urhookedfish 12]

I think one problem PIRSA faces is that there has been a big shift in fishing effort from Spencers to Gulf St Vincent.In order to protect the declining stocks of Spencers gulf fish they need to put in place a Daily catch limit. Maybe it only needs to be put in place in Spencers Gulf only? Im not sure if PIRSA could just implement something for one gulf. But upon thinking about it maybe they could.What I think we are seeing is fish of 12 years of age or over moving from Spencers into Gulf St vincents and this is supported by PIRSA reports.Its good to hear that you think our gulf is not showing any signs of unsustainability. I must admit there has still been good numbers of big fish caught this year from Metro regions and also there are still good numbers of fish being caught up at ardrossan.

[jaffa 81]

@ urh, if you were being told by Fisheries (or their political masters) that suddenly you weren`t allowed to do something that was allowed when you paid out your pile of dough for licence,boat,cold room, etc etc would you be happy to be told that based on someones opinion that the fishery is in trouble that you`re about to take a large haircut in salary with no compensation? And while we`re on the subject of the TAC do you really believe Fisheries implemented it or did they just bow to political pressure from external areas, like sharkfishing during daylight hours,same as marine parks. Fisheries were overridden there were`nt they, no need for marine parks when we supposedly have the best managed fishery on the planet,but we got in bed with the Greens & we`re signatories to some international treaty(ies) that suits someones political agenda. Papers on fishing are paid for by Gov`t,prepared for Gov`t & paper theorists produce what the Gov`ts want to hear. I deal in what I see,know & have learned,stuff that I can see has changed. Just cannot condone changing stuff in advance on opinion,theory, when practicality & reality tells me different. If the Fishery starts to decline again then change it up,do something different, TOTALLY UNFAIR TO CHANGE CONDITIONS ON PEOPLE WHO`VE PAID THEIR MONEY ON A WHIM,THEORY,MAYBE OR POLITICAL AGENDA. The powers that be made changes when they needed to previously,let`s stick with that. Cheers

[Boyington214 0]

Good points raised by both sides here. One of the things that I am confused about is the supposed mass of pinkies in the upper parts of the gulf. I'm not seeing evidence of that down this way. Where the pinkies and smaller ruggers were fairly prolific last season, I have not caught one at all this season. Could be a natural reason but I just don't know.

[jaffa 81]

@ Boyington214, we found the same thing earlier in the season, some of my grounds south of OH that also were unfishable for the last 3 years suddenly had nothing on `em for a few months but they are back with interest now. Cheers

[urhookedfish 12]

I clearly cant speak on behalf of PIRSA as to the exact reasons that this option was implemented and I think you should post this for them to comment on.In my opinion only, I suspect the fact that in the past after many successive years of increasing yearly totals, there is eventually a period of slump or falling totals. My thoughts are they are expecting this to come shortly and are trying to limit the slump.in simplified terms the Biomass is limited and eventually you are going to start to see massive impacts on it from over-fishing. The yearly catch figures are showing some massive years have just gone by.

[jaffa 81]

So if we have a bad year will that be because the pros raped & pillaged them all or just that a few less swam up the gulf for whatever reason, pretty tough call to limit blokes on maybes as I said before. Upper gulf has been thick with punks for several seasons now, so IMO it`s a fair call to say things aren`t in strife/ are improving & no need for any further restrictions. Cheers

[Fishie 98]

Jaffa, I've been saying from personal experience for the past two to three years that not as many good sized snapper in the huge schools have been exiting and entering the Gulf. First off a couple of years ago it was business as usual locating the big schools of snapper as they entered the Gulf... it was different in the last half of the season as the fish were definitely in limited stocks as they exited. It would be about two and a half years ago that I first started posting on Strikehook that the numbers were down in that last part of the season

[Guest]

From what i gather the Whyalla Snapper fishery is all but a shadow of its former self. Is this actually true?When slow growing fish like snapper are being dumped on the market for $3 a kilo then something is majorly wrong.Why do snapper pros these days need cray boats with 2 tonne storage capacity? If its not greed and an every man for himself attitude then what is it?Be good if the snapper pros worked together to limit their supply and force prices up to reasonable levels.At the moment its just an open slather slaughter with no regard for the future as the pros are competing against each other.The management and work together attitude of the spencer gulf prawn fishery is an ideal model for fisheries like snapper.

[Tacklebags 404]

The juvenile snapper are prevalent due to November ban. It is the total short, sharp destruction ofthe larger snapper by longliners post this ban and at other times of the year that is the problem.This is in essence what you are witnessing at the top off the gulf.TB

[jaffa 81]

@ nanman, working together to limit supply & force up prices is called "collusion" & could land you in jail. Did you read my previous post about how the auction system works? Fishermen do not have control over prices, it is a pot luck on the day thing, & "EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF IS CALLED "CAPITALISM". You blokes seem to have this notion that pros catch tonnes of fish every time they set their hooks. Problem is no-one is around & no-one is interested when you`ve set 200 hooks & caught nothin` but doggies,rays & fiddlers.coz it doesn`t suit your purpose to see/hear that does it, coz it doesn`t help with your argument to get what you want & that is to get long-lining stopped at all costs. You guys make me laugh, you spew big time when its done to you as per the sharkfishing but think nothing of doing it to others when it suits your purpose. @ Tacklebags, this is an industry thats been going for how long? How long have snapper been taken for commercial purposes ? and we still have snapper don`t we. And we have more juveniles than I`ve ever seen so we can`t be stuffing it up that bad can we? Cheers.

[jagger 24]

Just throwing this out there as a theory that could work in towards what you guys are talking about....Could it not be a classic example of when the larger fish are in less numbers then the smaller fish breed more rapidly as opportunity/less competition? Who really knows how they compete for breeding rights, surely it goes on ? Bream show signs of breeding, do snapper?This has been discussed many times over here with carp so why would the theory not be the same for snapper? Anyway...just spit balling as to why there is the volume of juveniles and what appears to be less older snapper.

[Fishie 98]

Are the small snapper of the same gene pool as the big snapper that migrate up into the shallows to breed. What happens to the eggs once they've developed... do they wash out of the Gulf and into the deep waters south of us or do they cluster in the mangroves as fingerlings and then migrate throughout the Gulf as 6 inch fish before schooling up with the big schools of snapper once they become ruggers. To tell the difference between deep water fish and shallow water fish you look at their skin colours. The snapper that don't see sunlight are close to being a whitish silver colour whereas the fish that get sunlight have the darker red tinges.Given this, would you assume that the small fish have moved in from very deep water or is that they have grown up in the shallows and being young they haven't been conditioned by the sunlight

[Guest]

@ nanman' date=' working together to limit supply & force up prices is called "collusion" & could land you in jail. Did you read my previous post about how the auction system works? Fishermen do not have control over prices, it is a pot luck on the day thing, & "EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF IS CALLED "CAPITALISM". You blokes seem to have this notion that pros catch tonnes of fish every time they set their hooks. Problem is no-one is around & no-one is interested when you`ve set 200 hooks & caught nothin` but doggies,rays & fiddlers.coz it doesn`t suit your purpose to see/hear that does it, coz it doesn`t help with your argument to get what you want & that is to get long-lining stopped at all costs. You guys make me laugh, you spew big time when its done to you as per the sharkfishing but think nothing of doing it to others when it suits your purpose. @ Tacklebags, this is an industry thats been going for how long? How long have snapper been taken for commercial purposes ? and we still hacvve snapper don`t we. And we have more juveniles than I`ve ever seen so we can`t be stuffing it up that bad can we? Cheers.[/quote']Jaffa its not collusion when the dominant purpose is fisheries management. Spencer gulf prawnies are being recognised all over the world for it and the fishery has never been healthier.Fish mongers are laughing all the way to the bank given what they pay the pros for snapper compared to what they charge consumers.

[afishyfish 4]

Fish mongers are laughing all the way to the bank given what they pay the pros for snapper compared to what they charge consumers.

Given that, why wouldnt the pros form some kind of collective/self managing strategy

[Kingsley 19]

where do the snapper go when they exit the gulf?

[Fishie 98]

where do the snapper go when they exit the gulf?

Out into deeper waters on the other side of Backstairs Passage whilst the other schools that travel down the west coastline of the Gulf will move out through Investigator Strait... some will also hang around in the deeper waters in schools out from Troubridge Point throughout winter

[Kingsley 19]

So the majority actually remain in SA waters? No mass migration to areas in other states?

[Fishie 98]

I'm not sure how far they migrate once they leave our waters. From memory I read a report that some enter Port Phillip Bay but I could be wrong.. Also heard that the two Gulfs have different gene pools

[archerfish 685]

I know I'm drawing a long bow with my limited knowledge, but can we use Redfin Perch as an analogy? Small populations of large fish vs large populations of small (runt) fish?Tonyb - your knowledge of (freshwater!) reddie populations would be welcome to this debate...Cheersaf

[Tacklebags 404]

@ Tacklebags' date=' this is an industry thats been going for how long? How long have snapper been taken for commercial purposes ? and we still have snapper don`t we. And we have more juveniles than I`ve ever seen so we can`t be stuffing it up that bad can we? Cheers.[/quote']jaffa you are not seeing my point about juveniles.The high amount of undersize snapper are because of the large extraction of snapper post the November ban. It is the ban that has allowed undersize snapper stocks to increase but any congregation of legal size snapper (especially way over legal) are being decimated post the ban and hence the lack of competition for food throughout the rest of the summer season.There are also 'density dependent body growth' factors at play here too.http://www.fishingworld.com.au/news/opening-of-snapper-season-exposes-flaws-in-fishery-managementTB

[jagger 24]

I know I'm drawing a long bow with my limited knowledge' date=' but can we use Redfin Perch as an analogy? Small populations of large fish vs large populations of small (runt) fish?Tonyb - your knowledge of (freshwater!) reddie populations would be welcome to this debate...Cheersaf[/quote']Archerfish that's where I was trying to go with my previous post. It's surely plausible ?

[jaffa 81]

@ Tacklebags, so your theory is there is an abundance of juvenile fish due to lack of competition from adult fish,due to pros hammering the breeders after the closure is that right?

[afishyfish 4]

At TacklebagsI agree that your idea has merit, . I also wonder if the netting bans have meant less juveniles get killed by netting too, increasing their numbers

@ Tacklebags' date=' so your theory is there is an abundance of juvenile fish due to lack of competition from adult fish,due to pros hammering the breeders after the closure is that right?[/quote']without being anti-pro Jaffa, it's a possibility isnt it

[jaffa 81]

@ AFF, anything & I mean anything is possible. But I`m doubtful,the pinky numbers appear to have increased significantly over 3 -5 years (and they are now moving into areas I`ve never previously seen them). It appears to me that it is either a lack of food elsewhere which isn`t supported by Tacklebags theory coz if most of the biggies are gone then there`d be plenty of food for the juvi`s & if its caused by the pros hammering all the biggies then why have I been seeing increases in juvenile no`s for 5 years when the pros from the other gulf have only been hitting up Ardrossan for the last 2. Gotta say I`m sceptical.

[Tacklebags 404]

Jaffa....to be honest there are bioregional changes that affect where, when and how many fish are present. These fluctuate and are hard for anyone to understand or comprehend.On the flip side....the November ban allows for a large percentage of snapper to breed prior to being hammered where they have congregated during December. This has contributed to an increase in juvenile snapper and is a typical scientific responce to temporary closures of other fish species as well.Many fish species have the ability to reproduce rapidly especially when the large predatory fish are suddenly removed from the food chain. Hence the ban has had a positive effect on juvenile snapper populations but increased the easy extraction of large snapper while they are congregated post ban. The last two years have seen huge increases in snapper extraction during the first two weeks of December and this needs to be spread out evenly over 365 days a year instead. ask anyone who fishes Tapleys Shoal over the last few years about the decreased numbers of big snapper in the last two summers.