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Have you seen the Magpie Fiddler?


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We've had a request from Professor Stephen Donnellan from the South Australian Museum regarding information on the Magpie Fiddler.Professor Donnellan said there was a photo on Strike & Hook quite a few years ago of a possible Magpie Fiddler, I've had a look at the link to the photo and it no longer exists as far as I can see on the server.If anyone can remember the photo, has a copy or knows who posted up the photo it would be very valuable information for the South Australian Museum and they would love to hear from you.The request is below, including a photo of the second only Magpie Fiddler brought to the SA Museum. Attached is a version of the below request that you can save and print.South Australian Museum scientists are on the hunt for a rare relative of the stingrays, the Magpie Fiddler. The Magpie Fiddler is a striking black and white ray that reaches almost one metre in length.South Australian fishers are familiar with the Southern Fiddler, which is often caught on fishing lines set for King George Whiting in shallow waters. The Magpie Fiddler is a close relative of this more common Southern Fiddler, but is quite rare.magpie-fiddler-sml.jpgDespite being described by scientists 60 years ago, the Magpie Fiddler is known from only two specimens from Gulf St Vincent and Kangaroo Island and handful of observations from around Adelaide.Scientists at the South Australian Museum would like to learn more about where the Magpie Fiddler lives and are seeking the help of South Australian fishers by asking them to keep a lookout for this rare ray. Being very rare, it is difficult for scientists to learn about its habits, so the South Australian Museum invites interested fishers to participate in our “Citizen Science” investigation, which dramatically increase the chances of increasing the number of sightings of the enigmatic ray. If you do catch a Magpie Fiddler, please take a photo, measure its length (from its snout to tail tip) and determine its sex (males have two long cigar shaped organs, called claspers, projecting from the base of the underside of the tail). Please record the location. Even just a photo and the location will be very valuable information.When you have an opportunity please forward the information to the South Australian Museum scientists:Ralph Foster (82077473) ralph.foster@samuseum.sa.gov.auor Stephen Donnellan, (8313 4855) steve.donnellan@samuseum.sa.gov.auMagpiefiddlerhandoutFeb2014.pdf

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http://friendsofgulfstvincent.org.au/2013/04/rare-magpie-fiddler-ray/Given point 4 of this webpage I will not be reporting any catches for said species. Just as many other rec fishers don't these days.Sorry that science has to suffer again, but there are too many in society that just want to stab rec fishers in the back!Perhaps you can get the scientists to address the political side with government first?TB
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Ah, good old FOGSV - anti-shark fishing and pro-Marine Parks activists.Good mates with WACRA apparently.Here`s a little bit of history, from their Blue Swimmer newsletter No 20 - January 2012The hazard posed by shark fishing is totally unnecessary, not to mention illegal, and we will be actively seeking far greater compliance monitoring.The Friends of Gulf St Vincent urge anyone with good reason to think that shark fishing is occurring from near shore to notify PIRSA Fisheries immediately...The shark tackle restrictions were introduced on 14 Feb 2012.I`d trust this mob as far as I could throw them...from a letter to Caica in April 2011The Friends of Gulf St Vincent join with other organisations and individuals to support fully the South Australian Government’s proposed Marine Sanctuaries.We are fortunate in South Australia to have an active and dedicated marine research community and have confidence that world class science underpins the choice of localities for protection.Despite long term management of fisheries in South Australia there is known to be an alarming decline in the status of several commercial species. Recreational fishing contributes to this decline and we must acknowledge that this will not change without action.

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Good friends with caica yes and just as uninformed.From issue 23 newsletter"It is estimated that up to 50% of blue swimmers caught in the gulf each year can be taken by amateurs (you and me crabbing) so we DO contribute to the decline in numbers. It is interesting that even though the commercial operators have stopped, there has been no call to the wider community to play its part?"Maybe 50% metro waters but 29% statewide estimates.No wonder Gago and Caica saw rec limits reduced, their friends set the agenda.

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TB

"It is estimated that up to 50% of blue swimmers caught in the gulf each year can be taken by amateurs (you and me crabbing) so we DO contribute to the decline in numbers. It is interesting that even though the commercial operators have stopped, there has been no call to the wider community to play its part?"

Interesting that a couple of paras before that statement they quote SARDI who were suggesting food web cascades and recruitment issues as other causes...and that the 50% statement was in a July 2013 newsletter, GSV recreational bag limits having been halved a couple of months earlier...hmmm.Oh, and the commercial operators didn`t "stop" - there was a temporary six month closure.And I`m still scratching my head over this statement in the same article;It was also interesting that there was no obvious reference on the PIRSA Fisheries website to the closure of the crab fishery.Say what...?http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/pirsa/media_list/fisheries/reduction_in_blue_swimmer_crab_fishing_limits_to_aid_recoveryand the Recfishing "home" pagehttp://www.pir.sa.gov.au/fisheries/recreational_fishing
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While there is a very important political side to rec fishing in South Australia let's try to keep this topic on track.At the moment in this thread we look like a bunch of fisherman that don't want to help science even though it may be the contrary. It can be a double edged sword there's no doubt about that and perhaps I'm too naive when it comes to science passing on potentially malleable data to politicians but if we don't help the scientists with accurate data who will?We can discuss the politics in another thread ;)By the way Dr Donnellan is a fisho :)

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Fair enough bjorn2fish but I would hate to see rec fishers get sucked in again. It is unfortunate that science has to be rejected because of politics but like I said, this is something the scientists can take up with our government and the zealots.If they all want science with rec fishers again then they can change their agenda first.

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carn man, seriously? Its a bloody rare skate he is looking for some info on!!Hardly a target species for the average rec and has no commercial value!!The same tit for tat arguement your pushing could be used in regards to your constant "hard" questions aimed at PIRSA.They answer just about every question that is asked on here , should they also just go away and leave us to our own devices ?One could see the way they are often treated as harrassment!! I know if part of my job description was having to log onto the local fishing forum and deal with the constant bagging and questioning, Id be hitting my boss up for a decent pay rise or just making sure "I didnt get around to it".It no wonder they carefully choose what social media to partake in :d/ As for socializing with Ciaca, again, if I disowned anybody that had dealings with someone I didn’t agree with, I’d be couped up at home with my doors barricaded!!I quick suggestion, maybe a bit more time on the water catching fish is the go here? Maybe when online, read/post some hints, post the odd report up?Just a suggestion that’s all, surely all this political jousting takes the fun away from something we are all trying to do “recreationally”?

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Maybe I am naive but I cannot see the harm in taking a photo and measuring the length of one of these in the extremely unlikely scenario that you catch them. There is either very few of them or they are very good at not getting caught, only 4 known sightings in many years so the chances of actually having to make a decision to help or not is probably never going to happen.

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Ale and Bjorn, points taken.Notwithstanding the (acknowledged) thread drift in this instance, regarding the statement

I quick suggestion, maybe a bit more time on the water catching fish is the go here?Maybe when online, read/post some hints, post the odd report up?Just a suggestion that’s all, surely all this political jousting surely takes the fun away from something we are all trying to do “recreationally”?

All well and good, but it`s also no bad thing to be aware of what is going on away from a jetty or boat. A little bit of information dissemination could potentially assist in raising awareness and thus possibly helping safeguard the recreation activity down the track?PIRSA - to be fair, there can be a grey area overlap between a simplistic explanation of "what" versus asking for (quite legitimately) an elaboration on the "why" of any given regulatory change...the difficulty is that the latter has the potential to get a little out of hand.
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What ale said....I viewed this thread this morning with genuine interest as to how rare this animal was.I for one actually thought the "Magpie Fiddler" was just a mutation of the ol' common Skate that scares the schite outa me when I step on it while raking for blueys. ( Albino gone wrong mayhap)@ bjorn2fish - can this thread be renamed and your original started again ? as different species are of great interest to me and a I assume a lot of others.I for one would report seeing / catching one as I have with catfish in the fresh, even though I don't think any info I've given in regards to Catties will make them a baggable fish in the future ...but hey, if it helps keep them in our system ...so be it .I have always found PIRSA to be very helpful on this forum ....it would be a shame to lose this resource.

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Ale and Bjorn' date=' points taken.Notwithstanding the (acknowledged) thread drift in this instance, regarding the statement

I quick suggestion, maybe a bit more time on the water catching fish is the go here?Maybe when online, read/post some hints, post the odd report up?Just a suggestion that’s all, surely all this political jousting surely takes the fun away from something we are all trying to do “recreationally”?

All well and good, but it`s also no bad thing to be aware of what is going on away from a jetty or boat. A little bit of information dissemination could potentially assist in raising awareness and thus possibly helping safeguard the recreation activity down the track?PIRSA - to be fair, there can be a grey area overlap between a simplistic explanation of "what" versus asking for (quite legitimately) an elaboration on the "why" of any given regulatory change...the difficulty is that the latter has the potential to get a little out of hand.
Yep, I agree Kon, and let’s remember that the people who choose to partake on this forum from all the relevant departments aren’t necessarily the ones making the rules or even understanding why they are there.If I was made to go on a forum that had members seeking questions on mineral processing plants, I may be able to answer some questions, may even know why some things are so, but there would things I wouldn’t understand or be able to answer.I guess it all needs to be kept in perspective and I think “balance” is the right word here.Thanks to the likes of yourself and the organizations you’re a member off, I believe the info to draw opinions from and get knowledge is there , we don’t have to dig too deep , and for what it’s worth, I lift my hat to the likes of yourself. I know as I type this, others elsewhere will be saying how SH admin are zealots, and in PIRSA’s pockets etc, but the reality is far from that.We try to provide an open forum where anybody can join up and be involved in discussions, mainly around recreational fishing!If we have someone with a “different” point of view join, its welcomed, and as long as discussions are kept respectful (and we all walk the line at times) and no rules are broken, they continue.In this case, a scientist has asked ( thru the right avenues) if there is any chance members of the forum could help him with any info on a rare skate, nothing more.If he has worked alongside other groups, so be it, SH , is just another group .Let’s keep in mind that all the “nasties” we’ve been dealt as recs are part of a much bigger and convoluted picture, a picture that just about every rec has played a part in somehow.
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"I know as I type this, others elsewhere will be saying how SH admin are zealots, and in PIRSA’s pockets etc, but the reality is far from that"Not me ale...."In this case, a scientist has asked ( thru the right avenues) if there is any chance members of the forum could help him with any info on a rare skate, nothing more.If he has worked alongside other groups, so be it, SH , is just another group ."No problem with the scientists or their case as its not them that would use feedback against us. I think the metro sharking issue upset enough members of this forum to justify exercising extreme caution with anything fgsv or WACRA are taking an interest in."The same tit for tat arguement your pushing could be used in regards to your constant "hard" questions aimed at PIRSA."Sometimes on behalf of others not confident or prepared to ask them themselves. So why shoot the messenger? Plenty of others who post on here are less diplomatic than myself."Hardly a target species for the average rec and has no commercial value!!"Agreed but unfortunately the status of this species gives rise to their agenda, it doesn't diminish it when advocating banning fishing in the port river.You raise ya hat to Kon but don't like my concerns on the issue. Fair enough I can cop that.

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:laugh::laugh::laugh: Dude, Il even quote my own bad grammar.
Thanks to the likes of yourself and the organizations you’re a member off' date=' I believe the info to draw opinions from and get knowledge is there , we don’t have to dig too deep , and for what it’s worth, I lift my hat to the likes of yourself.[/quote'] Most would agree that personalities and some minor details aside, Kon's and your resume would read pretty similar? I said "likes of yourselves" twice!! and for what its worth, I did mean ( but not limited ) to both of you guys that have posted in this thread :laugh::laugh: .anyway, I'm done with this, anybody that reads the title of this thread and notices how many views it's had could be forgiven for thinking its a thread about the Port Adelaide magpies.The doc should be happy, seems our "little" forum has a bigger audience than is at first evident, Id be surprised if we don't get a few pix of this little critter pop up now :fishing:
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All well and good, but it`s also no bad thing to be aware of what is going on away from a jetty or boat.

Ignorant is bliss sometimes, although I reckon a lot of rec fisherman are well aware of the political issues in this hobby. I'm sure no-one has an issue with fishing related politics being discussed on this forum, and I'm sure that plenty even enjoy debating it.... but do we have to steer every post into a political soapbox and witch hunt? I mean, don't we have enough threads already on this forum alone that go into minute details of people's personal grievances with PIRSA, Recfish and every other political party and fishing body that ever existed?
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  • 4 weeks later...

I reckon the guys have put up a valid point in regards to identifying locations where magpie fiddlers are caught/sighted. What's to stop our wise government from compiling a list of location sightings and ensuring the protection of the species by putting up some additional no take zones within their precautionary principle. I've observed a magpie fiddler north of the port river fairly recently in a shallow mangrove area, looks and behaves like stock standard fiddler. Further then that I respectfully decline to help out science department for the above reason. Tin foil hat firmly attached

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I agree totally with the likes of tacklebags. kon and rsk.

 

If i saw a magpie fidler i wouldn't say a word because the green zealots will use it as a reason to punish recreational anglers further by creating more sanctuary zones.

 

Its apathy and naivety that as a state we now have another 4 years of dealing with a green zealot dominated labor government. Who knows what damage is going to be done to our recreation during the next 4 years.

 

Only need to look back to the start of the marine park process when the government asked for everybody's favourite fishing spots then plonked the sanctuary zones all over them.

 

Its a terrible shame it needs to be that way but the green zealots prey on apathy and genuine good will of most anglers.

 

This is definitely not a case of barking at shadows or some other form of psychosis towards green zealots. Its a genuine concern.

 

With regards to the mapie fidler ray i think its just a standard fidler ray with a skin pigment deformity. Otherwise why wouldn't there be a lot more of them since they would have virtually no predators and no commercial or recreational fishing interest in them.

 

Its sad that politics and recreational fishing have become fused together over the last few years but it is what it is now.

 

Regarding PIRSA if you can't ask them the hard questions then what's the point of them being here as any statutory fishing regulation question can be answered very easily by referring to the many guides they publish.

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Nanman

 

I must say that from my perspective it is, on balance, more of a pragmatic approach than paranoia.

But rsk`s tinfoil hat quip is possibly not inappropriate...


Prof Donnellan was no doubt doing a scattergun everywhere he could think of in genuinely asking for assistance regarding something pretty bloody rare by all accounts, but nonetheless a hypothetical - the next [insert a number] Magpie Fiddler sightings... all in the Port environs...ya gotta ask yourself the question re potential outcomes, hell, there`s been enough aggro from certain quarters regarding dolphins vs props for a start?


 

As you yourself poignantly said, think back to the SAMPIT business with MPs...once bitten, twice shy and all that?

 

Sure, as with other critical/protected species, a "release immediately" requirement would be the commonsense outcome, but layer a few localised sightings over a few other local issues and ya gotta wonder.

 

Re PIRSA - it`s a fine line with "hard questions". I have had a couple of "discussions" with them on here over the last year or two, but one has to be mindful of the fact that they are here to primarily explain background and clarify regulations, not to debate policies let alone gummint initiatives...however questionable some of those may be!

 

And credit where credit due - they do make an effort to maintain a presence, I reckon it`s no bad thing?

 

Labor - hmmm...purely a personal perspective based on various sources but, wash my mouth out with soap, I am actually thinking that the Libs winning would have seen SA reccos basically jumping from "frypan to frypan".

I`m not entirely convinced a change of government would have necessarily improved things all that much.

 

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not sure how to post photos on here, but I have some of a fiddler that has albino type colouring. Eyes are normal though, not sure if its of any interest to the scientist. Won't mention location but its a female, just under 100cm long, released alive and well

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I agree with everyones post that  i used the like feature.

 

Bit sceptical to help science these days.. ends up worse for rec fishers usually .

 

 

Some groups  will come up with  something like , there was a Magpie Fiddler caught /released in  gulf st vincent  ,

its an endangerd  species and the gulf should be closed to all fishing !    Ridiculas   i know ...but sometimes ....

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I agree with everyones post that  i used the like feature.

 

Bit sceptical to help science these days.. ends up worse for rec fishers usually .

 

 

Some groups  will come up with  something like , there was a Magpie Fiddler caught /released in  gulf st vincent  ,

its an endangerd  species and the gulf should be closed to all fishing !    Ridiculas   i know ...but sometimes ....

This is from the WACRA petition that ended up a ban on all motorised vessels, read the qouted petition below. The last line in particular.....the same mob who instigated the meeting RECFISHSA had with PIRSA to ban metro shark fishing. RECFISHSA were forced into a position of compromise as WACRA had more power over decision makers than RECFISHSA. They created a media fear campaign backed by a federal labor minister and other connections. PIRSA under Gago had a total ban sort prior to RECFISHSA being made aware of the pending decision. RECFISHSA subsequently had to rubber stamp a media release supporting the 5am to 9pm ban and gear restrictions without any consultation with rec fishers prior or it was a 24 hour ban. PIRSA then made this legislation permanent 12 months later. Consulting with RECFISHSA in such a manner is not consulting with rec fishers.

 

 

"To the Honourable the Members of the House of Assembly in Parliament Assembled:We, the undersigned, call upon Minister Koutsantonis and the Government of South Australia to introduce regulations to restrict the use of Personal Water Craft (PWCs or jet-skis) to designated areas of the metropolitan coast and River Murray that are not widely used for swimming or other non-motorised water activities. Within these areas, we ask that PWCs should be restricted to a speed not exceeding 4 knots within 400 metres of the low water mark or from any residence. We also ask that PWCs be specifically excluded from using the waters of the Port River and Barker Inlet."

 

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/jet-skis-in-south-australia-stop-the-noise-prevent-in.html

 

How many people swim in the port river?

 

Both WACRA and the FOGSV are pushing bans for the port river and barker inlet and using any excuse that will ban boat fishing by default . With my tin foil hat on I will err on the side of thanks but no thanks and apologise in advance for the political nature of my post.

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TB - basically what you said. I would just like to point out that the tackle restrictions were reviewed after about 12 months to something a little more reasonable and practical than the initial knee-jerk fast-tracking - then about another 12 months later they actually became permanent. (2 year rule for temporary restrictions under the Fisheries Act, blah, blah...)

 

BTW, I gained the impression that the whole exercise, whilst being PIRSA-actioned, did not smack of being PIRSA-driven.

They just happened to be the gummint department told to "make it happen" - lobbying and contacts apparently trumped the advice of CSIRO and SARDI subject matter experts, not to mention the record of shark attacks in metro waters.

:rolleyes:

 

Looking at the anti-fishing and anti-boating history of certain action groups, and intriguing decisions made ostensibly by government departments in recent times, I too am just a little reticent to contribute any "citizen science" which may have potential unforeseen and unpalatable consequences.

 

Sad to say, because the Donnellan enquiry seems to be a legitimate species-specific and research-related crowd-sourcing information request...

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BTW, I gained the impression that the whole exercise, whilst being PIRSA-actioned, did not smack of being PIRSA-driven.
:rolleyes:
 
Looking at the anti-fishing and anti-boating history of certain action groups, and intriguing decisions made ostensibly by government departments in recent times, I too am just a little reticent to contribute any "citizen science" which may have potential unforeseen and unpalatable consequences.
 
Sad to say, because the Donnellan enquiry seems to be a legitimate species-specific and research-related crowd-sourcing information request...

 

 

I agree with both sections highlighted in bold. With another 4 years of labor in government and the claim by this government before the election to increase 'all motorised bans' along the entire metro coastline it's not PIRSA I don't trust but Labor.

 

 

lobbying and contacts apparently trumped the advice of CSIRO and SARDI subject matter experts, not to mention the record of shark attacks in metro waters.

 

There inlies the problem for Donnellan who only wants plutonic knowledge and has no interest in the wider debate.

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