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doobie

Surface Lure attachment - knot or swivel?

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I'm in a dilemma and looking for some guidance.

My main reason to try and get this right is so the surface lure is performing correctly and not maybe spinning around or upside down etc.

I've looked through youtube videos etc to what really is the better way to attach a surface lure to the leader - knot or swivel.

I've just started targeting YFW (2 sessions without luck) and read/seen some use a loop knot as it allows to lure to move more natural.   Then other people might use a Uni knot and say it works well also .... and the list goes on.

Others might say to use a swivel as it makes no difference in lure action and also easy to swap lures.

The way I'm thinking for rigging is (depending on any pros/cons) ....

1) Lure > Swivel > mono Leader > Uni Knot > Braid = easy to change Lure, but swivel may effect Lure performance

2) Lure > 'x' Knot > Mono Leader > Uni Knot > Braid = awkward to change Lure as another knot needs to be tied, but if it provides correct performance I'll suck it up

3) Lure > 'x' Knot > Mono Leader > Swivel > Braid = would need additional Lures pre-made with Leader for ease of changing Lures. But again, could the swivel effect performance.

I'm probably over thinking this, but wondered if anyone has had experience with surface lures and can tell if there is any difference using a certain knot against using a swivel.

 

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Braid to leader use your favorite knot then to a lure clip,nothing fancy in this set up but clean and tidy.

Swap lures whenever and as a example you can use this clip but there are others as some can be difficult to get onto a lure.The clips need to be light so they don't interfere with lure action

If running braid swivels will do nothing to help twist,i mainly fish lures year long and this set up is so simple.. "KISS "system 

s-l1600.jpg

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For me the following works well with surface lures for bream:

Lure > clip > loop knot on fluorocarbon leader > improved Albright knot > braid. Depending on what you are chasing the fluoro can be swapped out for mono. I use these but remove the swivel. Snaps are easy to use with short fingers and fading eyesight 😉.  Good luck with this. Be interested to see what others suggest. Regards, HBt.

Black Magic Rolling Snap Swivel 39 Pack, , bcf_hi-res

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12 minutes ago, SurfcaztR said:

Braid to leader use your favorite knot then to a lure clip,nothing fancy in this set up but clean and tidy.

Swap lures whenever and as a example you can use this clip but there are others as some can be difficult to get onto a lure.The clips need to be light so they don't interfere with lure action

Thanks SurfcaztR for your info.

The swivel I have used were small and light, but as a swivel, compared to a clip, 'may' have some interference - but I don't really know (being new to surface luring).

With some saying the Loop knot is the 'better' way, I suppose the clip you showed is similar is 'design' with a type of loop look.

 

11 minutes ago, HB tragic said:

For me the following works well with surface lures for bream:

Lure > clip > loop knot on fluorocarbon leader > improved Albright knot > braid. Depending on what you are chasing the fluoro can be swapped out for mono. Good luck with this. Be interested to see what others suggest. Regards, HBt.

Thanks HB tragic for your info too.

As we know, mono and fluro have their pros and cons.  I read it is better to use mono for surface lures as it floats, whereas fluro will sink and could effect 'things'.

 

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I'm like both of the above swivels.. use the silver plain snap on hard body lures and the small black snap swivel on both hard body & blade spinners..

Don't have any trouble with either of them on the hard body lures, though I only use mono line for all my fishing.. even though mainly trout now days.

The swivels are great as it saves a lot of time changing lures and tying knots..

cheers

Adrian

 

Small snap swivels (Medium).JPG

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31 minutes ago, Meppstas said:

I'm like both of the above swivels.. use the silver plain snap on hard body lures and the small black snap swivel on both hard body & blade spinners..

Don't have any trouble with either of them on the hard body lures, though I only use mono line for all my fishing.. even though mainly trout now days.

The swivels are great as it saves a lot of time changing lures and tying knots..

cheers

Adrian

 

Small snap swivels (Medium).JPG

Thanks Adrian.

Clips/swivels certainly save time in the changing over, just hoping they don't make a huge difference in surface luring compared to having them.

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Lure > Decoy 00 clip is what i use then blood knot to tie the clip to my fluro. Traditional swivels are WAY to bulky for smaller lures. People say clips are even rubbish and use a loop knot, Yes loop knot will probably give you a little bit more movement but i'm happy to sacrifice that for being lazy. :lol: 

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5 minutes ago, Softy said:

Lure > Decoy 00 clip is what i use then blood knot to tie the clip to my fluro. Traditional swivels are WAY to bulky for smaller lures. People say clips are even rubbish and use a loop knot, Yes loop knot will probably give you a little bit more movement but i'm happy to sacrifice that for being lazy. :lol: 

It looks like the better way to go using that type of clip by the replies.

I presume you mean Improved Clinch Knot / Locked Blood Knot as a basic Blood Knot would slip imo.

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11 minutes ago, SurfcaztR said:

Maybe this will help

 

 

:lol: I just came back in from the garage from taking the swivel clip off the line and re-tying to just a clip (size 0) then saw your post - may have to go back out and change back lol

He makes sense but I'll see how it goes with just a clip between lure and leader.

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2 hours ago, doobie said:

It looks like the better way to go using that type of clip by the replies.

I presume you mean Improved Clinch Knot / Locked Blood Knot as a basic Blood Knot would slip imo.

What ever it's called.. :lol: 

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Yes Doobs, your over complicating it. Haha

Each of the methods, as with the others outlined, will work - its just some work better than others depending on the species your targeting.

With YFW you can use swivels and clips / loop knots and still catch fish. But your strike rate will increase significantly if you ditch them, instead tying your braid directly to the leader and your leader directly to the tow point of the lure with a tight knot.

This is because it improves the presentation of the lure in the water.

Personally I run the below:

Braid > FG Knot > Mono Leader > Uni knot > tow point of lure.

I've run other options and settled on the above. I have also fished along others who run clips / swivels and the disparity between the success rates of each option is highly visible.

At the end of the day, choose an option that works for you.

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8 hours ago, Territory Lad said:

Yes Doobs, your over complicating it. Haha

Each of the methods, as with the others outlined, will work - its just some work better than others depending on the species your targeting.

With YFW you can use swivels and clips / loop knots and still catch fish. But your strike rate will increase significantly if you ditch them, instead tying your braid directly to the leader and your leader directly to the tow point of the lure with a tight knot.

This is because it improves the presentation of the lure in the water.

Personally I run the below:

Braid > FG Knot > Mono Leader > Uni knot > tow point of lure.

I've run other options and settled on the above. I have also fished along others who run clips / swivels and the disparity between the success rates of each option is highly visible.

At the end of the day, choose an option that works for you.

I second this

yes clips work but I’ve always found direct tie to pure results in better strike rate 

I also hate the little clips and I find them fidly and can tie quicker 

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Clips on most lures, but Ive found that tying straight to lure with a tight knot if using sugar pens or similar helps with the walk dog action..

If using straight retrieve, I use clips......

The splash prawns don't like clips.. They keep diving under water.. if tied straight to leader they work a treat...

Blades work well with clips.... 

My opinion, but each to their own..

Mike

2020-01-13 11.46.32.jpg

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9 hours ago, Territory Lad said:

Yes Doobs, your over complicating it. Haha

Each of the methods, as with the others outlined, will work - its just some work better than others depending on the species your targeting.

With YFW you can use swivels and clips / loop knots and still catch fish. But your strike rate will increase significantly if you ditch them, instead tying your braid directly to the leader and your leader directly to the tow point of the lure with a tight knot.

This is because it improves the presentation of the lure in the water.

Personally I run the below:

Braid > FG Knot > Mono Leader > Uni knot > tow point of lure.

I've run other options and settled on the above. I have also fished along others who run clips / swivels and the disparity between the success rates of each option is highly visible.

At the end of the day, choose an option that works for you.

Thought I was too lol

That's the sort of info/recommendation I was looking for with regard to presentation / strike rate as to whether a  swivel/clip/direct tie is better.

Thanks Territory Lad.

1 hour ago, keenfisho said:

I second this

yes clips work but I’ve always found direct tie to pure results in better strike rate 

I also hate the little clips and I find them fidly and can tie quicker 

Thanks also keenfisho - knowing you've also targeted YF, I thought you'd have some input.

 

So how do you guys go whilst standing in the shallows, if you want to change lures?  

Or do you just stick with the same 'successful' lure or just suck it up and change it if needed (obviously not changing/re-tying every 15 minutes).

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1 minute ago, MIKECATTS said:

Clips on most lures, but Ive found that tying straight to lure with a tight knot if using sugar pens or similar helps with the walk dog action..

If using straight retrieve, I use clips......

The splash prawns don't like clips.. They keep diving under water.. if tied straight to leader they work a treat...

Blades work well with clips.... 

My opinion, but each to their own..

Mike

2020-01-13 11.46.32.jpg

Thanks also MikeCatts.

I did try one with a blade just to see how it felt - felt/looked good.

I've got some Atomic and Topwater lures being sent to me so will see how they go.

Only have a sugapen 70mm atm, but only used a swivel so far - using a direct knot next, so hopefully I see a difference.

Still, I'm only very new to surface luring with just 2 sessions so far - I can only improve ... hopefully :)

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2 hours ago, doobie said:

So how do you guys go whilst standing in the shallows, if you want to change lures?  

Or do you just stick with the same 'successful' lure or just suck it up and change it if needed (obviously not changing/re-tying every 15 minutes).

The main thing is to be organised. Less is more and what you have you need to be able to access easily.

When I first started I had a small, standard backpack and I found it quite difficult to access my gear and get the lure I wanted whilst wading.

I soon moved to a "sling bag" (there are a few out there, I went with the rapala version). This allowed me to easily slide/swing the bag from my back, round in front of me without having to take it off. Other options would be bum-bags (black magics come to mind), small satchel bags (Diawa), the Alvey wading bags, and even fly vests @Meppstas gave me that one when I was first looking around and I later found it is also what Bushy uses when wading.

I then upgraded to a tub (blatantly stole this from @Underpants) - which makes things easier again. It also allows me to cheat by having 3 different rods, all rigged with different lures which means Im changing less lures on the water.

Regarding changing of lures and frequency. When I first started, I changed as often as possible as I wanted to speed up my learning - which lures/patterns/retrieves worked best in which scenarios. The biggest problem I ran into wasn't actually changing the lure, it was running out of leader. Changing a lure on the water is easy. Tying on a new leader whilst on the water is a pain in the a$$, especially when its windy!! Once I moved to a tub with multiple rods, I had 3 times as much leader to play with - cheating really 🤫.

If I had my time again, or I was advising someone just starting out. My advice would be this.

1. Less is more. No need to take the kitchen sink. A small tackle tray that holds a handful of lures is more than enough. 2-3 stickbaits and 2-3 poppers will provide enough variance but still allow you to focus of nailing their retrieves.

2. Get a small bum-bag (just because they are cheaper) that can hold the tackle tray, scissors, a spool of leader, small pliers, suncreen and your car keys. Bum-bag goes over one shoulder and under the arm of the other. Creates a "sling" action and you have everything at the ready.

3. Pick a braid-leader knot and direct leader to tow point knot and practice them at home. I dont mean sitting down with the rod over there and your leader spool beside you. I mean practice as you would on the water. Rod tucked under one arm, standing, gear bag on. Otherwise its a long walk back to the bank to deal with it each and everytime.

4. Just keep casting. Persist, persist, persist. Like anything, once you crack the code its sooooo much fun.

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30 minutes ago, Territory Lad said:

Like anything, once you crack the code its sooooo much fun.

And that's the code I want to crack.  Not to say the 2 sessions so far weren't fun wading in the shallows and enjoying just being there - but it needs the next level up with the surface lures :)

Sort of similar to the Salmon luring I do, but at the same time very much different.

Thanks Territory Lad for taking the time to put that detailed info/suggestions up from your experiences - it certainly has helped me.

 

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I’m a bit late seeing this post 

lure clips work great I’ve used them in various forms on salt water flies hardbodies and plastics .

The knot I use is a fly fishing knot called lefties loop knot . I’ve had so many experts tell me those knots don’t work fishing with lures then I show them a mulleway or larger bream ( funny I have caught them  ) and they go quiet 😊

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I like to fish very minimalistic.

I only have the wading bag, rod/reel, spare spool ready to go, little box of lures, water, scent, fish oil, a couple of rags, one to wrap the keepers in and keep soaking in water and one to wipe my hands/grab the fish, pocket knife, scissors. The FG knot gadget, spool of .28mm leader.

If I have to tie a new leader, I generally walk to solid ground sit down and do it..

Me ,wading shoes in summer, waders in winter, fags and some decent weather.... If I get some keepers  its a bonus, but if not, theres always small stuff about and I do enjoy the experience of it all...

Im only after a couple, for a feed and tend to let most go..

Mike

wading gear.jpg

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10 hours ago, Territory Lad said:

@MIKECATTS How do you find the FG Knot Tool to use?

 

Hi mate..

I like it.. works well, easy to use and Im yet to have a knot come undone.. Best $45 Ive ever spent.

I started using my hands.. too hard/frustrating, then made a gadget, see pics. It worked ok but tended to put kinks in the line due to having to be tight to work, then did some u tubing and seen this...

It can tie 6lb braid to 8lb leader no probs....

Ive tied 50lb braid to 80lb leader no probs... doesn't kink the line and the knots are tight..

Mike

2020-02-03 07.12.34.jpg

2020-02-03 07.12.58.jpg

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Best thing I ever did was change my line over to Floating Mono-filament line.... Being a floating line it presents the lure excellently, helps track the lure and makes it easier to use. 

The line I use is Sunline fine float PE #0.6. It's not cheap but In my opinion well worth it. As for connection I either use a decoy lure snap on 00 size or tie directly to the lure. 

Lately i have been using the lure clip purely for the fact I have been trying out my custom lures so it's easier to chop and change......

 

On a side note I got a few Lure i can sell to you at a good Strike Hook Price ;)

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A simple test to know what the lure action is like with clips is to attach the clip to the lure,pick up the lure by the clip and sway the lure from side to side like a swimming action.In 99% of the time they work out fine to use,some of the small clips virtually weigh nothing but can be 10kg breaking strain,give it a shot and most likely you'll move on and forget about re-tying knots.

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Yeah, most cost effective fishing purchase I ever made was like a 2km (sounds like way too much, cannot remember now, exact, but was heaps) bulk spool of 6lb Rouge mono. It is actually really good straight through for surface luring, alows you to tie direct, no dramas about leader. I am sure it is just a matter of time untill one of the large flathead I catch as bycatch, breaks me off, but so far so good.

 AS long as you are not using Tiny 1000 sized reels, I find 6lb mono casts fine, not as far as gliss, but far enough. Some people say too big, but I like 3000 sized shimano',s on a 1-3kg 0r 2-4kg rod for tossing Sugapens, and the GOAT surface lure; the lucky craft SAmmy 65.

 

I absolutely agree about the Alvey style wading bag, I happen to use a Hessian version from BCF, with the added bonus that wet HEssian keeps the catch cool, for a fair while anyway. BEst part is that you can rest/balance the reel against the openeing of the bag, as it (the bag, not the reel) sits across your shoulder and re-tie, easy peasy while on/in the water.

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I have just seen this post. Here are some of my experiences and current thinking.

These days I always use a clip. 

I wont touch the Decoy round snaps or V snaps as I have lost too many good fish and lures due to them opening up. On some occasions quite possibly my fault as they are so bloody hard to snap into place properly.

These are the snaps I use these days. They are so easy & quick to use. 

1) Norman Lure Clips. Ever reliable

2) Decoy Spiral Snaps ... which I have only just started using. Time will tell. 

- Mustad Fastach clip, Is an easy to use clip, but I have found with a vigorously worked floating stick baits the lure can work loose and off the clip.

ClipNorman-clips.jpg.50360de836566af9724bca2ff1ae1174.jpg

ClipDecoySpiral.jpg.4a8cbe25dfb32e158a59a8df738ca3c7.jpg

 

So I don't tie direct to the lure. Repetitive tying will soon shorten your leader. These days my leader is fairly short. Around 18" to 24" as I am using ultra light rods with micro guides. Those guides are very knot intolerant and I am not good at tying the slimmest FG knot. So the knot does not enter the guides at all. The sensitive top end of a quality ultra light rod is a good shock absorber and you don't need to rely as much on the leader which can now be shorter.

Too much is made of the effect of the clip on the lure action. Poppers are potentially the most affected. A high rod position with an upward wrist action will get it popping right. A sensitive quality ultra light rods will allow you to impart a greater variety of actions to your lure.

This is visual fishing with surface lures. So change and adjust your rod position, wrist action & retrieve action to give you your desired movement. You always control and work the lure rather than the lure control you and you simply wind it back !

Apart from an ultra light rod with a well balanced reel, the other link in the chain is to use a very sensitive braid and leader. I find Sunline Siglon braid and Sunline Float deliver your rod and wrist action quickly and directly to your lure. Easier to impart your desired action.

sunline-siglon-pex8-braided-line-3.jpg.7fab8f3b4326735e6aa663c5b5e07571.jpgSunlineFloat.jpg.17400a68a7982b8783f775843d3886d1.jpg

 

Clips make lure fishing soooo easy. But you may have to consider the rest of your gear for them to be effective. Good luck.

Cheers, Des

 

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I use the Mustad Fastach clip for my Fresh water fishing using bigger lures chasing Cod and Callop and reckon they are fantastic. (Size 3 75lb/41kg) Never considered using them in a smaller size for chasing Bream etc. I like the Decoy 00 for light work they are thin and light weight, i've never had issues with them opening up. Caught most of my PB's using them.

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