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Wind Knots


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I recently experienced some unexpected problems with wind knots.

It was with a line and reel combination that had previously given me a smooth trouble free run for 2 years. So I was totally taken by surprise.

I had re spooled with some Sunline Siglon Pex8 (not ADV) on an ABU GARCIA MGX Revo 2 MGXtreme Reel.

From the very first cast I started experiencing problems on a setup that was trouble free for 2 years.

The only thing changed was that the reel has just been pulled apart and serviced by a store (not me)

Something has changed since and I am struggling to put my finger on it.

I have unspooled the line and rewound it several times without success. 

I found this site with some helpful info:  

https://www.henry-gilbey.com/blog/is-the-wrong-winding-shape-one-of-the-causes-of-wind-knots

I am yet to go through the washer changing process and hopefully it is the solution.

What are the experiences of others and any other suggestions?

Cheers, Des

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hey Des can you take a photo of how your line lays on the spool.

I recently went through a very similar experience and misdiagnosed my problem as line twist. This happened due to a coincidence in timing. I was  using a new lure that was helicoptering, when these wind knots came along

I built a little swivel swivel rig and went down to the park and undid all the twist - packed it all back on tight

Turns out my line lay was the problem. Mine was way too top heavy and I spooled it too close to the lip.

I added shims to both my reels and respooled the top shot, so the line lay would be much more even. I'd like it to be more even but I cant be stuffed adding more shims and walking around the park again.

In my experience, wind knots are from excess line getting dragged over the spool lip while casting. So packing it on tight - having an even line lay and not spooling too close to the lip are the ways to stop clumps of line coming off at once.

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Heres my 3 most used reels at the moment - the 2 on the left still have a more pronounced top heavy spooling that the one on the right - so you can imagine how bad it was before I added shims.

Any spooling that encourages line to leap off the spool, like really top heavy spooling, needs close monitoring or fixing, in my experience. Especially on reel used to cast maximum distance often.

Slightly under-spooling so there is a 2mm gap between the edge of the spool and your line - can really help with wind knots aswell.

You can often hear when your line is over spooled - it makes a messy sound as its cast - "plat plat plat plat plat" as it comes of the spool in the early stage of the cast.

The spooling pattern on the far right has been extremely well behaved over the last couple of years - Straight out of the box the line has performed bewdifully

 

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I use to get wind knots quite regularly whilst luring for Salmon with 15lb braid.

It was always time consuming trying to get the knots unraveled and of course it was always when the school was in front of me.

I read on Google that lip balm helped 'untangle' the mess (some just use saliva).  But it seemed to work and tangles/knots were easier to 'release'.

Now, I can't remember the last one I had. 

Reading more from Google, it seemed the most important thing to do was making sure the braid was spooled on reasonably tight/firm.

And don't over load the spool.

And that's it - 2 basic things I do and as mentioned, I can't remember the last wind knot I had.

When walking to edge of the water to cast out, I always just cast a few small distant casts to luber up the line too.

It all seems to help.

 

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To get even line lay you take the spool off,remove the drag washers and fit a narrow nut and bolt through the spool.You attach a variable speed drill to the bolt and let the line go on evenly at a desired speed,this way isn't much different to a shop spooler.Once the spool is back on the reel you can spray some line conditioner or i use Johnson baby oil as it works just as good.

Every cast you manually flip the bail wire over by hand then lift the rod tip to take up any slack line before starting to retrieve,make sure the line looks to be in place before turning the handle.

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2 hours ago, SurfcaztR said:

To get even line lay you take the spool off,remove the drag washers and fit a narrow nut and bolt through the spool.You attach a variable speed drill to the bolt and let the line go on evenly at a desired speed,this way isn't much different to a shop spooler.Once the spool is back on the reel you can spray some line conditioner or i use Johnson baby oil as it works just as good.

Every cast you manually flip the bail wire over by hand then lift the rod tip to take up any slack line before starting to retrieve,make sure the line looks to be in place before turning the handle.

Only problem with artificially creating a line lay is - the first long cast with a deep drop you make - your reel will have to take all that line back in.

If your shims were out of whack - its going to lay the line back on the way it wants to. Depending on how out of whack - you may end up with 20m of line that wont go back on.

Ive had reels where I've hand laid the line on with a bottom taper because I know it will be reversed and even out with a long cast into deep water.

Getting the shims right is the best way to fix line lay issues

The spool below was the first time I put line on with a drill - looked great until I punched out an 80m cast into 10m of water  - then it went back to the wavey mess that bait runners are famous for and not all the line would fit back on the spool😉

 

552.jpg

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7 hours ago, yellow door 1 said:

Only problem with artificially creating a line lay is - the first long cast with a deep drop you make - your reel will have to take all that line back in.

If your shims were out of whack - its going to lay the line back on the way it wants to. Depending on how out of whack - you may end up with 20m of line that wont go back on.

Ive had reels where I've hand laid the line on with a bottom taper because I know it will be reversed and even out with a long cast into deep water.

Getting the shims right is the best way to fix line lay issues

The spool below was the first time I put line on with a drill - looked great until I punched out an 80m cast into 10m of water  - then it went back to the wavey mess that bait runners are famous for and not all the line would fit back on the spool😉

 

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But Des is not using a Shimano bait runner reel

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2 hours ago, SurfcaztR said:

But Des is not using a Shimano bait runner reel

Yeah tackle shops dont use those machines because they create great line lay on spinning reels- its because their arms would fall off if they had to spool every reel by hand.

Nearly every reel manufacture has a patented line laying system on their reels "XWraps", "Rocket Line Management Sytem", "Cross Wrap" etc

Im sure many of these "Line Lays" are just by-products of the way spinning reels lay line. Then the companies decided to give them a fancy name and claim they are a feature - they will all say that the way they lay line, stops the line digging into itself under heavy pressure. And its hard to argue with that

But no matter who the manufacturer is - its very difficult to mimic with a drill.

So in my opinion, correctly shimmed reels is the best option to take care of line lay issues.

My story about a shimano bait runner was just to illustrate an extreme version of why using a drill will not fix issues.

 




 

550.jpg

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I have had a 2 year trouble free run with the Siglon PEx8 braid on the Abu Garcia Revo MGXtreme.

Recently I had the reel serviced and the same braid line replaced.

From the very first cast something had changed.

I have been to the park unwound and rewound the line under constant pressure only to find the same problem.

Apart from the shape of the lay, the line is winding on erratically with loose sections in the wrap.

My next step is to add a shim/washer or two and go back to the park to unwind and rewind.

The only thing I can think of is that during the service a shim was taken off and lost resulting in the change in wind and line lay.

Will keep you posted.

Cheers Des

LineWindKnots1.jpg

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36 minutes ago, Des said:

I have had a 2 year trouble free run with the Siglon PEx8 braid on the Abu Garcia Revo MGXtreme.

Recently I had the reel serviced and the same braid line replaced.

From the very first cast something had changed.

I have been to the park unwound and rewound the line under constant pressure only to find the same problem.

Apart from the shape of the lay, the line is winding on erratically with loose sections in the wrap.

My next step is to add a shim/washer or two and go back to the park to unwind and rewind.

The only thing I can think of is that during the service a shim was taken off and lost resulting in the change in wind and line lay.

Will keep you posted.

Cheers Des

LineWindKnots1.jpg

Its important to note that Im no pro - but In my experience - adding a shim will actually accentuate that bulge at the bottom and will make your issues worse. And make sure your shims are properly bedded and laying flat

I'd be taking a shim out and slightly underspooling the reel - give yourself a 1-2mm gap from the actual edge of the spool - at a glance it looks like your reel is over spooled and has a bulge down the bottom. One of those issues on its own, is enough to cause wind knots in my experience.

That can be a problem when you get a reel spooled up at the shop on a machine - due to the unnatural line lay, they can sometimes pack more on line than your reel can handle.  Once all the tension is released by casting,  the reels natural line lay kicks in and its not the same as the one from the machine at the shop

Underspooling means you will sacrifice some distance in casting but its way better than wind knots, where you will lose the line anyway. Start with 1mm and underspooled and see if that helps - if it doesnt go to 2mm and if that doesnt help - smash the reel with a hammer and chuck it in the bin because there comes a point when lifes too short to put up with that mental anguish😉

I havent come across a reel that winds line on tight, then loose then tight again, but it may have something to do with that bulge down the bottom - line may be stacking up on the bulge then slipping off.

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6 hours ago, Des said:

I have had a 2 year trouble free run with the Siglon PEx8 braid on the Abu Garcia Revo MGXtreme.

Recently I had the reel serviced and the same braid line replaced.

From the very first cast something had changed.

I have been to the park unwound and rewound the line under constant pressure only to find the same problem.

Apart from the shape of the lay, the line is winding on erratically with loose sections in the wrap.

My next step is to add a shim/washer or two and go back to the park to unwind and rewind.

The only thing I can think of is that during the service a shim was taken off and lost resulting in the change in wind and line lay.

Will keep you posted.

Cheers Des

LineWindKnots1.jpg

Wouldn't the reel specs show how many shims there should be etc? Then you would know if one is missing or put together incorrectly...

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22 hours ago, yellow door 1 said:

Yeah tackle shops dont use those machines because they create great line lay on spinning reels- its because their arms would fall off if they had to spool every reel by hand.

Nearly every reel manufacture has a patented line laying system on their reels "XWraps", "Rocket Line Management Sytem", "Cross Wrap" etc

Im sure many of these "Line Lays" are just by-products of the way spinning reels lay line. Then the companies decided to give them a fancy name and claim they are a feature - they will all say that the way they lay line, stops the line digging into itself under heavy pressure. And its hard to argue with that

But no matter who the manufacturer is - its very difficult to mimic with a drill.

So in my opinion, correctly shimmed reels is the best option to take care of line lay issues.

My story about a shimano bait runner was just to illustrate an extreme version of why using a drill will not fix issues.

 




 

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Thanks for the advice about shims...but could you be more specific with photos or a diagram of how you shim for different line lay problems? Where does the shim go for, say, line lay too close to the lip? It seems to me "wind knots" are more the norm than the exception in using new loads of light breaking strain braid.

 

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7 minutes ago, Plectropomus said:

Thanks for the advice about shims...but could you be more specific with photos or a diagram of how you shim for different line lay problems? Where does the shim go for, say, line lay too close to the lip? It seems to me "wind knots" are more the norm than the exception in using new loads of light breaking strain braid.

 

a shim is like plat form shoes - it makes your spool sit a couple of mm  higher on the stem - this will influence the way line wraps around the spool.

If your spool is to tall - line wraps more heavily around the base of the spool.

If you spool is too short - line gathers around the top of the spool forming a bulge up there.

If these bulges are too pronounced they can cause issues and seriously decrease the amount of line you can fit on the spool.

Some reels are really simple to change shims - you just undo the spool and slide a shim down the shaft and bang - its done.

Others have little rubber bands or other locking mechanisms than need to be removed before adding or subtracting shims

SO you would need to watch a tutorial on your specific reel to get it right.

Over time my reels either loosen up or the shims get compressed - so most of my fixes involve adding shims to to stop top heavy spooling.

Ill find some diagrams later

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Heres a guy addressing my most common problem - his doesnt even look that bad compared to some of mine in the past

NB - his reel is massively underspooled (Probably a result of all the wind knots) (I'd be packing more backing on before respooling that reel) and not all diawa reels have the same shims - some are much smaller and require the removal of a rubber band to get to the shim stack.

So find a tutorial for your reel before doing it - some will require little picking tools to dislodge bands and shims - a straightened fish hook is a handy tool for reel maintenance if you dont have a dedicated picking tool -  You will be tempted to try with fingernails and that will just get your hands messy and waste alot of time😉 - Its very easy with the right tool but a mental break down inducing task with out one

The long and short of it is - if your line is top heavy - add a shim and vice versa

 

 


 

 

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15 hours ago, Des said:

Damn! Do I really have to read the instructions 😆

Im my experience reels loosen up and shims compress over time - so what was perfect straight out of the box may need adjusting after a year of big fish and even bigger snags😉

Even tiny shifts or changes can have a big influence on line lay - nearly all my reels need reshimming after a year or 2

 

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On 03/04/2022 at 11:58 AM, Des said:

I recently experienced some unexpected problems with wind knots.

It was with a line and reel combination that had previously given me a smooth trouble free run for 2 years. So I was totally taken by surprise.

You're a jinx Des. I went for a fish on Monday night, throwing soft plastics for tommies. I grabbed my Atomic Arrows Bream Surface and Stradic Ci4+ 1000. This combination has worked great for years, but on Monday night I ended up with an ugly mess of a wind knot.

This was the second time I used the reel after I had fully stripped it down for a complete service. When I got home and had a closer look, the line lay was top heavy and a bit loose. 

I've stripped the line, added a shim and re-spooled. The line lay looks perfect again, so hopefully it should be fine next time.

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There are also guys that swear that manually closing the bail arm after each cast (instead of tripping it by using the reel handle) is a good idea.

The explanation Ive heard is because you take on loose line and it adds a half twist every time you do it.

Ive always manually closed the bail arm. So I havent got to experience the issues related to using the reel handle to do it. But I am very cautious not to take on loose line while coming up tight to my lure

 

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1 hour ago, yellow door 1 said:

There are also guys that swear that manually closing the bail arm after each cast (instead of tripping it by using the reel handle) is a good idea.

The explanation Ive heard is because you take on loose line and it adds a half twist every time you do it.

Ive always manually closed the bail arm. So I havent got to experience the issues related to using the reel handle to do it. But I am very cautious not to take on loose line while coming up tight to my lure

 

Agree - something I forgot to mention.

And also 'feathering' the line with your fingers just before lure hitting the water - then manually close the bail arm.

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5 hours ago, yellow door 1 said:

There are also guys that swear that manually closing the bail arm after each cast (instead of tripping it by using the reel handle) is a good idea.

The explanation Ive heard is because you take on loose line and it adds a half twist every time you do it.

Ive always manually closed the bail arm. So I havent got to experience the issues related to using the reel handle to do it. But I am very cautious not to take on loose line while coming up tight to my lure

 

Yep, it probably is a combination of everything, the shim thing for sure, as a kid I'd even make my own (well pre braid) for an even lay, my Grandfather taught me that, another thing he told me relevant to this was always have tension on the line when winding in, if you don't have weight on use your finger otherwise you get loose coils which will cause tangles.

I still do as he taught me and have NEVER had a wind knot, I do occasionally overfill a spool though and get the same experience.....

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I finally got my issues sorted today.

It took some unspooling and re spooling in the park. ( and a tangled Labradoodle 😒)

I did replace the only shim in the reel, with the skinniest version I had.

I also used several small swivels above the weight to ensure I removed any line twist when winding back on.

I had a suspicion the store machine may have put in a bit of line twist, As they initially did not put enough backing on. So they unwound and rewound the new line. That may have contributed to the problem. However rewinding the spool several times with extra swivels seems to have ensured it was removed.

Casting trouble free for now. 👍

 

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3 hours ago, Wert said:

Yep, it probably is a combination of everything, the shim thing for sure, as a kid I'd even make my own (well pre braid) for an even lay, my Grandfather taught me that, another thing he told me relevant to this was always have tension on the line when winding in, if you don't have weight on use your finger otherwise you get loose coils which will cause tangles.

I still do as he taught me and have NEVER had a wind knot, I do occasionally overfill a spool though and get the same experience.....

yeah being able to make your own parts can save you alot of time and cash - Ive made shims out of take away food containers before.

Last time I sent a reel to Daiwa to get the bail arm replaced, it came back missing a part.

I called expecting them to say "sorry for the inconvenience - we'll send one straight out" - Instead they said I'd have to send my reel back to them so they could check it.

It was going to cost me more to post than the part was worth. and I have to wait another few weeks to get my reel back

So I did some surgery on an old reel and replaced it. This little part was going to cost $7.50 plus $10 postage and handling. Its that sort of service that makes being to make your own part become a highly valuable skill

Funnily enough when I called them needing a spare circlip for a certate, a new guy (a few years later) answered the phone and said  - No worries and sent it out for free.

So the part I was fully prepared to pay for was sent for free and the one that should have come free with an apology was going to cost me

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1 hour ago, SurfcaztR said:

Surprising to read so many think swivels will undo twisted braided line no matter what size or brand of swivel is  used it won't work.Yes on Mono or Fluorocarbon line but not on braid.

I was aware that braid would not have the "torque" ( unsure of term) to untwist itself.

Nonetheless, I placed 3 x size 12 swivels in a row above a 30 gm swivel sinker. Then unwound and rewound the spool around 4 times.

This was the difference from my previous un winding attempt ... Also the new thin shim !!!

Hard to accurately identify what exactly did the trick. But it worked.

I see no harm in covering all bases. 

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3 hours ago, SurfcaztR said:

Surprising to read so many think swivels will undo twisted braided line no matter what size or brand of swivel is  used it won't work.Yes on Mono or Fluorocarbon line but not on braid.

Yeah I spose if you havent tried it might be difficult to believe - but once you have watched the swivel taking twist out of your braid with your own 2 eyes - it gets much easier😉.

My technique involved stretching the braid at 10m intervals then releasing tension so even a dodgy swivel can spin. A high quality ball bearing swivel would be even better suited to the task
 

 

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When using braid on a spinning reel i don't use a swivel and only get wind knots when i'm not paying attention to what i'm doing.The braid twists onto the spool,line twists off coming off the spool but no wind knots and that can be from two three or four casts per minute depending what i'm chasing.

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15 hours ago, SurfcaztR said:

Surprising to read so many think swivels will undo twisted braided line no matter what size or brand of swivel is  used it won't work.Yes on Mono or Fluorocarbon line but not on braid.

Sorry but you're wrong, small quality rolling swivels 100% work on light braid, so do the fancy ball-bearing ones on heavier braid

I've literally watched the swivel work as advertised many, many times when fishing in current and testing to make sure my bait doesn't spin, in fact when the swivel doesn't spin (but the bait does because I didn't quite get it right) I check to make sure it's loose because sometimes they catch, give it another go and if it doesn't work change it.

Are they as effective on braid? No, certainly not, you won't get your line 100% twist free but they absolutely prevent serious line twist and to say that they won't work is frankly ridiculous and I can't imagine how you would be able to bait fish high current flow areas without them.

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8 hours ago, Wert said:

Sorry but you're wrong, small quality rolling swivels 100% work on light braid, so do the fancy ball-bearing ones on heavier braid

I've literally watched the swivel work as advertised many, many times when fishing in current and testing to make sure my bait doesn't spin, in fact when the swivel doesn't spin (but the bait does because I didn't quite get it right) I check to make sure it's loose because sometimes they catch, give it another go and if it doesn't work change it.

Are they as effective on braid? No, certainly not, you won't get your line 100% twist free but they absolutely prevent serious line twist and to say that they won't work is frankly ridiculous and I can't imagine how you would be able to bait fish high current flow areas without them.

Agree 👍

The only time I don't use a swivel is casting light lures i:e; Yellowfin lures, with these I use a small clip without swivel but if I am changing over to bait fishing I have a swivel on my rig that I attach the small clip to, that way I can switch between bait & lures without cutting or re-tying or having to worry about the bait spinning & creating line twist when retrieving. 

Other than this I will not fish without a swivel somewhere in my line. I use the swivel to prevent line twist as I find it easier to not get the twist than to try & get the twist out.

When talking swivels I am talking quality swivels, rolling, crane, ball bearing, depending on the application, not cheap S**t that doesn't spin.

Yorky

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I think it all depends on how one fishes the braid,if i'm casting 2-4 lures per minute on braid and that lure comes back in up right then the lure doesn't cause line twist so no swivel is used.If i were casting a spoon or spinner bait then i'd expect to get some serious braid line twist,i'd switch to using a mono or FC line with a swivel because i know the swivel will take out line twist.If i was dropping line straight down then the set up would be different again.

People get so use to fishing there own style/way that they sometimes can't see what others are doing.

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20 minutes ago, SurfcaztR said:

I think it all depends on how one fishes the braid,if i'm casting 2-4 lures per minute on braid and that lure comes back in up right then the lure doesn't cause line twist so no swivel is used.If i were casting a spoon or spinner bait then i'd expect to get some serious braid line twist,i'd switch to using a mono or FC line with a swivel because i know the swivel will take out line twist.If i was dropping line straight down then the set up would be different again.

People get so use to fishing there own style/way that they sometimes can't see what others are doing.

No, I can see fine, I also don't always use a swivel depending on location and style but it is a FACT that swivels DO work with braid and can absolutely assist with avoiding wind knots.

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