De barbing rays?

[cweed 0]

Hey guys just been on Point Turton jetty and saw a bloke hook a 4-5 foot eagle ray.Battled with it for about 30mins then tried three times hoiking it up the jetty. He then decided to walk it to the shallows which he did easily because the ray was spent after getting dropped three times from about half way up the jetty. He then pulled it onto a rock and proceeded to cut its barb off. He then just pushed it back in the water where it just sank to the bottom.So my questions are, Is this legal and just the done thing?Does this harm the ray and maybe kill it?And why bother doing this if you arent going to eat it instead of just getting back as much line as possible and then cutting it off?It didnt impress me at all, infact got me quite angry, but didnt want to say anything incase this is just an acceptable thing to do

[jagger 24]

Acceptable.... Hell no !Illegal... cruelty to animals IS illegal.Keeping the fish/ray is not however. It can be taken home and used for bait, food, pet food etc... but to just take a trophy ! appauling that thi still happens. Yes it will probably die, perhaps it does survive a bit like people who used to steal got there hands cut off...I think you can see where I'm going !

[Shark_Fisho 1]

Its stupid, Its like taking away a gun from a soldier!!!!

[cweed 0]

Now im kicking myself for not saying anything I do know which cabin he is staying at in the caravan park though!!

[benny 1]

chopping off a rays tail would be akin to having a hand or a foot chopped off to us, would cause them a lot of pain, they don't necessarily die from it, but it leaves them open to infections which may kill them slowly, only a lucky few survive with no tail. a big no-no mutilating a fish/ray/shark if you are going to release it

[savage480 1]

Unfortunately not likely to be illegal, (I don't think cruelty to animals extends to fish), but you have to consider the mentality of someone that does something like this.Just another reason why fishers get a bad name. If other people see this sort of behaviour from a small minority, we all get tarred with the same brush.

[chuckemback 0]

im allot diffrent on this matter! i say cuting a barb off in order to get your hooks out safely is ok if ya know what ya doing, cozz most times your gonna have to push drag pull the ray to get it swiming again , kind of guid it out again, easier done without a barb on the tail.i dont cut their tails off though. just barbs sometimes to get them going again ...im sure you all know that they DO grow back new barbs.even been told that by Melbourne aquarium stalf. cutting a barb of a ray is like triming your fingernails. think of it that way.it sounds like your friend at turton wasnt prepared to deal with large rays very well aye? long fights with light lines usually means your getting wet,if you want to release a ray succesfuly after capture.my opinion anyway!

[Mr_Willy 3]

Sounds like he cut the whole tail off and not just the barb....I have caught many a sting ray without a tail, so they can survive without it, but it is there for a reason and it is their defence mechanism so they would struggle to survive for too long....Anyone with half a brain can handle a ray with a barb... They aren't dangerous if you take your time.

[jagger 24]

Mr_Willy wrote:

Anyone with half a brain can handle a ray with a barb... They aren't dangerous if you take your time.

My thoughts exactly !! Why cut it off just so you can get your rig back ?? Why not just cut what you want from your rig and leave the hook in to biodegrade ??? Or even better just cut it off and let it swim free without having to touch it at all.

[brenton 637]

I reckon i'd be more likely to get stabbed by trying to cut off a barb than just letting it go.I'd rather not catch the bloody things in the first place. cheers brenton

[chuckemback 0]

But i enjoy catching eagle rays and find its a good chalenge from our beaches in summer! how bout after ive gaffed a ray and landed it on a jetty taken a few photos and released it again after debarbing it they still swim away nicely.in your opinions is this wrong?just trying to see where some of u stand on this.please dont kill my fun!

[silaflex 103]

chuckemback wrote:

how bout after ive gaffed a ray and landed it on a jetty taken a few photos and released it again after debarbing it they still swim away nicely.in your opinions is this wrong?

Are you serious??

[jagger 24]

I have no problem in catching them, in fact my Dad stirs me up beacuse I'm out with a squid head as soon as I see them near the crab pots.Why gaff them ?? Surely you can see that this is harming them and some WILL see this as cruelty to animals. if you are only doing this to get your rig back, perhap review your procedures in landing them. If you can't do it without hurting them, why not just cut off ?I can see teh head lines now..."Local fisherman accused of cruelty to animals by catching, stabbing and mutilating marine species"This of course is the old 60 minutes test but you can see how some will view it.

[chuckemback 0]

Ahhh ....ok ....so its ok to kill and butcher them on a jetty or beachif you have a use for them, that is not cruelty to animals?i will continue to fish the way i do cozz its still leagal and until that changes will enjoy my fishing!i land them, cozz if u just cut your line once you can see them ..that is not a capture cozz u aint landed nuthin.

[Ranger 48]

so its ok to kill and butcher them on a jetty or beachif you have a use for them, that is not cruelty to animals?

I find it acceptable to humanely kill and butcher an animal if you are going to make us of it, yes! To butcher and then release an animal though, I find pretty offensive and unneccesary.My personal opinion only! I find this practice completely abhorrent, disgusting and needless. It's one issue where I'll gladly side with the greens and animal liberationists to fight against fishermen who partake of this practice, and I feel confident the majority of the population would also be similarly outraged, were they aware of it.I thought it was only veterinary surgeons who were licensed to perform surgery or to "humanely" remove body parts from animals when/if necessary? How long have you been a surgeon, or am I mistaken? I believe you are correct though, in that it's NOT illegal..........otherwise I would have already reported it!

[weaver 271]

The dude might of took the barb as a trophy, if he didn't cut the tail off the barb would regrow.

[savage480 1]

I find it acceptable to humanely kill and butcher an animal if you are going to make us of it, yes! To butcher and then release an animal though, I find pretty offensive and unnecessary.

I have to say, I am with Ranger on this one. If you have a use for it, by all means, kill the animal. However, what is the point then of throwing it back injured, where it is likely to die a slow death.

how bout after ive gaffed a ray and landed it on a jetty taken a few photos and released it again after debarbing it they still swim away nicely

Just because it swims away at the time, doesn't mean it survives.If someone attacks and stabs you in the stomach and then you run away, can that person think, Oh he'll be ok because he ran away? Without any medical treatment you could easily die a slow and painful death.If you don't intend to keep it, why not give a chance to live, so that the next angler that comes along may have a chance of enjoying catching it too.

[southslide 0]

i try not to harm any fish that i dont want to keep, altho my mate has taken ONE barb off a eagle ray as a letter opener and this was only because we where told they grow back! so i dont get abused we have only done it ONCE out of alot of rays witch where released un-harmed.gaffing them to land them? i'll do it when there is no other way to land them without it being a major pain in the ass and only because i enjoy LANDING them and getting afew happy snaps.but each to they're own

[Ranger 48]

im sure you all know that they DO grow back new barbs.even been told that by Melbourne aquarium stalf. cutting a barb of a ray is like triming your fingernails. think of it that way.

if he didn't cut the tail off the barb would regrow.

Stingray barb is cartilage. When a barb is used in defense, or trimmed properly and humanely, it is broken off NOT removed. At the Aquariums they use bolt cutters if they need to trim a barb for any reason, but it's done by qualified staff who know what they are doing. In a way I guess this could be looked at as similar to a fingernail which regrows, although a fingernail consists of keratin not cartilage.To make a comparison hooves and horns are also made of keratin, and they too can be trimmed, NOT removed. A fisherman getting out his knife and REMOVING the barb (or the tail) is an entirely different scenario though. You would trim a fingernail, a hoof, or a horn, NOT pull or cut the thing out, which then does NOT regrow and is certainly NOT ethical or humane treatment!Please do not confuse the two!

[chuckemback 0]

stingray barbs are definetly not cartlige , are bone ! the grow back!foot on tail and cut under the barb till its off then release if ya dont want the creature. have caught enough to know whats right. thakyou. unless you gaff them in the head or in the body part where vital organs are the rays live on .

[Ranger 48]

chuckemback wrote:

stingray barbs are definetly not cartlige , are bone ! the grow back!

Sure! I guess this is all wrong too then, as you've caught enough to know what's right?

The barb is made of cartilage (same as the tip of your nose and your ears) and it's extremely sharp and serrated. Stingrays can regrow barbs and have been found with multiple barbs. Stingray venom typically isn't fatal, but it's extremely painful. The barbs are also brittle and often fragment in the wound. It's common for surgery to be included in the treatment for a stingray wound. Another danger is infection. Stingray stings are good sources for getting tetanus. Stingrays don't have any bones, they're almost entirely flesh and cartilage. The closest thing to stingray ray fossils that have ever been found are teeth and barbs. It's rare to find barbs because they're made of cartilage and cartilage can rot just like flesh.

Stingray spines consist of stilletto-like, backward-pointing, serrated barbs made of a hard bone-like cartilagenous material

Stingray expert Peter Fenner said their barbs are made of tough cartilage and are sheathed in venom.

Rays are members of the Class Chondrichthyes, or cartilaginous fish. There isn't a bone in their bodies; their skeletons are all cartilage! The stingrays are also placed in the Subclass Elasmobranchii, a distinction they share with sharks and chimeras (batfish).

The barb, or spine,according to Dr. Shipp, can grow back if broken off

The stinger usually breaks off in the wound

Do you need more? I wonder how many of your other theories may also be a little flawed?

The stingray's venom apparatus is composed of the tail, or caudal appendage, along with a barbed spine and its enveloping integumentary sheath, and associated venom glands. There is a wedge-shaped area of tissue that is in close contact with the spine; thus, when the spine is lying flat against the dorsal surface of the ray, it is bathed in a melange of venom and mucus. There is a great deal of confusion concerning the terms sting, spine, and barb. The sting properly refers to the entire structure: the spine, its sheath, and the venom glands.

When you pull out your knife and begin cutting without knowing what you are doing, you are actually cutting out the sheath and the venom glands as well as the spine you are seeking. Do you think these also grow back?

[Guest Brent61southoz]

ive caught many rays.using approx 1=1.5m heavy wire trace off the beach means you dont need to gaff them, they can be pulled out of the water, remove barb if you want , remove hooks then easily releaseduse care and they swim away without to much damage.i only gaff sharks if i keep them for a feedbrentbiggest barb is 11 3/4" long

[chuckemback 0]

my theories are always a little flawd but they work 4 me most times.and im sticking to my theories and past own knowlege about barbs and rays too . they're almost entirely flesh and cartilage. what part is not cartilage? i wonder ? the skin? internal organs?barbs look like bone more than cartilage . but as usual ranger the world believes you more than me .the rotting of cartilage. hmmmm my barbs havnt rotted in over 20 years. but cartlage rots aye? funny that.

[spog777 1]

I used to see alot of this type of crap going on when i was a kid fishing local jetties. Some may survive and the barbs grow back but until then the poor buggers are totally defenceless against attack. hell if someone wnats a souvenier take a bloody photo and let the poor bugger go unharmed.

[Guest Brent61southoz]

aren't sharks jaws also cartilage ? they dont rotbrent

[Shark_Fisho 1]

Theres no need to cut its barb off, it's easy to release them with there barb on and the ray's happy he still has his barb and ur happy.

[chuckemback 0]

yea .. brent they dont rot either, but surley you must notice that barbs are of diffrent material than the outer frame of a shark jaw, maybe it just depends on what envronment they are left at.geez....you all got me worried. should i stop fishing for eaglies? seems like its not to popular amongst most on here .so sad there goes my summer fun ! no more catch n release. no more fights ..maybe ill just baloon out baits cozz there isnt anything large or fun to catch landbased on the bottom.who wants to catch n relese the Port Jacksons with me soon?if i see a ray swim past i can claim ive caught it ! isnt livebating inhumane too? are we fisher people on here or a bunch of greenies?i could catch wind surfers and kite surfers maybe this summer and i wont even need a hook to do that!chuckemback cozz everythig i catch is useless!

[Ranger 48]

chuckemback wrote:

my theories are always a little flawd but they work 4 me most times.and im sticking to my theories and past own knowlege about barbs and rays too . they're almost entirely flesh and cartilage. what part is not cartilage? i wonder ? the skin? internal organs?barbs look like bone more than cartilage . but as usual ranger the world believes you more than me .the rotting of cartilage. hmmmm my barbs havnt rotted in over 20 years. but cartlage rots aye? funny that.

LOL! I provided 4 different sources on the subject to show you that you were wrong, and a simple internet search of your own should be enough to show you the same thing! If not, you'll just have to go on believing whatever you like, because nothing will ever convince you otherwise!Yes they are almost entirely cartilage and tissue, and the search you refuse to perform would show you this. The parts which aren't cartilage are obviously different forms of tissue (organs and musculature) and teeth! So yes, the skin and the internal organs are not cartilage! I would have thought that was pretty obvious though.In regards to rotting, I believe if you look a little closer you'll see they were talking about fossils in that article, which just happen to be a little older than 20 years! You might have to wait a little longer to see yours rot..........about 500-1000 years or so oughta do it! The hard surface on the sting which you are determined is bone, is in fact a substance known as Dentin. Dentin is found in teeth as well. It's a substrate material underneath the tooth enamel, which helps stops the teeth from breaking as the enamel is so hard and rigid. I can only speculate that this material serves a similar purpose in the sting, providing rigidity, structure and a degree of flexibility to the sting so that it can perform it's intended purpose! After all, it wouldn't be much of a sting if it was soft and rubbery! If the world believes me more than you, gee! Maybe do a little research on it yourself and you might start to understand why! Dont take my word for it though, just type in "Stingray" and see what the rest of the world and all the experts on it say! Ya cant tell them they're all wrong too though surely!

geez....you all got me worried. should i stop fishing for eaglies? seems like its not to popular amongst most on here .so sad there goes my summer fun ! no more catch n release. no more fights ..

I don't think anyone is against you catching rays if that's what you enjoy! If they are anything like me though, the part of it they dont like is when you or anyone else pulls out the knife and cuts the barb out, or when someone sticks a gaff into them if they intend to release it again afterwards!You are correct in regards to livebaiting too! That can also be seen as inhumane! I think people tend to tolerate that more though, because it's being done to little fishies, instead of big fishies. Human nature can be a strange thing sometimes!We don't have to be a bunch of greenies though to care about our catches, treat them humanely and try to act in a responsible manner! Remember the "Recreational Fisherman's Code of Conduct" we should all adhere to, and what it says:

4. CAREFULLY RETURN UNDERSIZED,PROTECTED OR UNWANTED CATCHBACK TO THE WATER.Catching undersized or unwanted species is inevitable. Butshould be returned to the water immediately.Using a wet cloth when handling fish improves the survivalrate, and their contribution to future catches.Learn and practice the best methods of releasing live fish.

It doesn't say anything about it being ok to cut bits off of them prior to releasing them!When we start doing other things, then we hand the greenies ammunition to use against us, and that leads to the possibility of laws regulating us!

i could catch wind surfers and kite surfers maybe this summer and i wont even need a hook to do that!

Personally I'd like to see you upgrade your outfits and target jetskiers instead! Take all the trophies you want from them, but please dont release them afterwards!

[Softy 2,991]

Think thread reminds me of the old "is it ok to spank your kids argument"

[Ranger 48]

Not really Softy!It is illegal these days to spank children, as much as some of them might learn a thing or two from it.It isn't illegal to mutilate fish though, so that one is just a moral arguement, and if Chuckemback wants to continue doing it, he's legally within his right to do it to the best of my knowledge!

[spog777 1]

Wow this topic really stirred a biting frenzy-better than any burley ive ever made. In the end i suppose it just boils down to what you feel is the right thing to do. De-barbing has been around since Adam swapped the apple for a fishing rod. Some agree-some dont. When i was young i had a brag board studded with ray barbs and a few sets of noah jaws as well. With time ive just changed how i look at things and now just take a few happy snaps and return the buggers to the sea. So all in all people will always perfer to take barbs etc and other people will prefer take pics hell even some really sick buggers will kiss the slimey buggers before setting them go (now thats cruel :ohmy: )but one thing everyone has in common is a love for a good battle with a top fighter and thats what rays excel at.

[jagger 24]

My sister in law works for the RSPCA so i might ask her opinion on this one. I'm sure there would be something out there to outlaw possible torture of marine species. I do remember there being a few dolphins that have been the target of archers (probably crossbows) they would throw the book at them if ever caught, Is trophy hunting not a similar activity ??I'm all for catching them, everyone knows they are fun during a hot summer night while waiting for the toothy friend to bite but seriously change your ways people.... The kiddies are going to start playing tag by taking the little finger as proof from now on.. your it :dry:

[Ranger 48]

jagger wrote:

My sister in law works for the RSPCA so i might ask her opinion on this one. I'm sure there would be something out there to outlaw possible torture of marine species. I do remember there being a few dolphins that have been the target of archers (probably crossbows) they would throw the book at them if ever caught, Is trophy hunting not a similar activity ??

I can already tell ya what her answer will be, as I've had to study this to gain my qualifications.The RSPCA are responsible for enforcing the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. http://www.legislation.sa.gov.au/LZ/C/A/ANIMAL%20WELFARE%20ACT%201985/2000.01.31_(1994.12.01)/1985.106.PDFDolphins are mammals, hence offered full coverage under the act, but FISH on the other hand are an exempt species from this act, and for the purposes of legality, both rays and sharks are classified as fish!

LegislationIn each of the states and territories of Australia existing fishing practices are exempt from cruelty provisions of animal welfare legislation.In South Australia, fish are denied the protection of the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act through being specifically excluded in the definition of ‘animal‘.

Technically most states include fish in their Prevention of Cruelty to Animals acts. The exception is South Australia, where "animal" is defined as "any species of the sub-phylum vertebrata except - (a) a human being; or ( a fish".

Interpretation3. In this Act, unless the contrary intention appears—"animal" means a member of any species of the sub-phylum vertebrata except—(a) a human being; or( a fish,

As odd as it may seem to us, what this effectively means, is that you can burn out a fishes eyeballs, stick barbed wire down it's throat, or perform any other malicious act you can think of, even while being watched by an RSPCA officer, police officer or fisheries officer. They are completely powerless under this prevention of cruelty to animals act to stop you!

[jagger 24]

You're always good for it mate. Good stuff.Interesting that it's only SA.. behing the 8ball again

[Humf 2]

Everyone's golden rule should be "If you don't want to bag it, then return it as you found it!!" This applies to not only fish!! It's not hard to work out!!