Tacklebags 404 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Here we have the classic divide and conquer approach. Real supportive of family harmony this mob.http://www.mediapeta.com/peta/pdf/DaddyKillsAnimals.pdfhttp://www.peta.org/features/your-daddy-kills-animals.aspxI was told by a young lady down at Glenelg years ago that I was cruel and not fit to stand in the same room as ordinary decent Australian's after I showed my mate a picture of a fish I caught on my phone. It was a crowded room and she attempted to make a scene of it!Go figure it was a callop that was successfully released and her arguement was thwarted by other sound minded indivisuals when I told her just that!TB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boyington214 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Oh My God! These people are morons! Stay away from us PETA! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
afishyfish 4 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 These ppl just dont know when to give up do they :c :c :cGoddarn People Eating Tasty Animals :side: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tacklebags 404 Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 [attachment]FISH & PAIN.pdf[/attachment]Attached to this post we have the truth about fish and pain....might post it to PETA?TBSorry file is too big....heres the title, Author & intro. Use it to find the rest. The Neurobehavioral Nature of Fishesand the Question of Awareness andPainJames D. RoseDepartment of Zoology and Physiology, University of Wyoming, Laramie, WY 82071* Send correspondence to: Dr. James D. Rose, Department of Zoology and Physiology, University of Wyoming, Laramie, WY 82071. e-mail: trout@uwyo.eduI. INTRODUCTIONIn recent years, commercial and sport fishing have been challenged increasingly on grounds of humaneness. These challenges have appeared in the research literature (Verheijen and Flight, 1997) and in the arena of public opinion (American Fisheries Society Position Statement, 1999). A principal underlying assumption of the scientific and nonscientific challenges is that fishes are capable of suffering from pain in a manner similar to that experienced by humans (Bateson, 1992; Gregory, 1999; Verheijen and Flight, 1997). A similar assumption is evident in federal regulationspertaining to the use of fishes in research, in that these regulations apply to all live vertebrate animals (National Institutes of Health, 1985; National Research Council, 1996). An examination of the validity of this assumption from a scientific perspective is clearly needed.Advances in neuroscience research during recent decades have greatly improved our understanding of the neurological basis of pain as well as the neurobiological nature of fishes. The objective of this article is to utilize this knowledge to examine the neurobehavioral nature of fishes and to specifically address the question of whether fishes are capable of experiencing pain and suffering. In order to achieve this objective, the article addresses the following issues and concepts:1. Anthropomorphic thinking undermines our understanding of other species.2. An evolutionary perspective is essential to understanding the neurobehavioraldifferences between fishes and humans.3. Neurobehavioral differences between fishes and humans result from knowndifferences in central nervous system structure.4. Behavioral responses to noxious stimuli are separate from the psychologicalexperience of pain, such that behavioral responses to these stimuli can occurin the absence of pain experience.5. Awareness of pain in humans depends on specific regions of the cerebralcortex. Fishes lack these brain regions and thus lack the neural requirementsnecessary for pain experience.6. Previous assertions that fishes can experience pain will be critiqued.7. Conscious experience of fear, similar to pain, is a neurological impossibilityfor fishes.8. Fishes display robust but nonconscious, neuroendocrine, and physiologicalstress responses to noxious stimuli. Potentially injurious stress responses, asopposed to pain or emotional distress, are the proper matter of concern inconsiderations about the welfare of fishes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
afishyfish 4 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Attached to this post we have the truth about fish and pain....might post it to PETA?TBProb bwasting your time TB. Those people believe what they choose to I think ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tacklebags 404 Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Attached to this post we have the truth about fish and pain....might post it to PETA?TBProb bwasting your time TB. Those people believe what they choose to I think !Yeah I know but...At least we will all be informed of the facts!Knowledge is power my friends and so is knowing who is advertising against you!TB afishyfish 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pikk0n 2 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Why are these people getting paid and where does the money come from? Better not come from the taxes... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ugly4Life 41 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Why are these people getting paid and where does the money come from? Better not come from the taxes...Mostly donations from other, richer, 'conservatives' I imagine. I would be appalled if our tax payer dollars were being spent on this tripe. trihull 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigtime 1 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 peta are the biggest contradicting morons out there for a bunch of we love all animals equally why the hell do they support bsl then??? for those that dont know what bsl its breed specific legislation where anyone that owns a certain breed of dog it must be put down eg pitbulls now as far as im concerned that concept is a hell of alot crueller than a person catching a fish so to peta supporters a say a big pffffffft :c :c :c red_devil94 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fridge 6 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 cant wait to see the your mummy kills animalsim still lmao Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kon 300 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Always a worthwhile reminder of where these people are athttp://features.peta.org/PETASeaKittens/about.aspThis from the President of PETA, Ingrid NewkirkInstead of seeing all the other species on Earth as ours to convert into hamburgers, handbags, living burglar alarms, amusements, test tubes with whiskers, and so on, we need to respect them as fellow beings, as other individuals and families and tribes who have the same basic interests in experiencing joy and love and living without needless pain and harassment as we do. :whistle: AndIf anybody wonders 'what's this with all these reforms?', you can hear us clearly. Our goal is total animal liberation, and the day when everyone believes that animals are not ours to eat, not ours to wear, not ours to experiment [on], and not ours for entertainment or any other exploitive purpose.Oh, and throw out every single item of woollen clothing you havehttp://www.peta.org/about/faq/Whats-wrong-with-wearing-wool.aspxBut I do like this tongue-in-cheek appraisal of the organisation!http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/PETA Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ugly4Life 41 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 But I do like this tongue-in-cheek appraisal of the organisation!rationalwiki.org/wiki/PETAGold! Sea kittensAmong PETA's more ridiculous campaigns has been their decision that fish should now be known as "sea kittens". Apparently having a cute and silly name is enough to stop global overfishing in its tracks.I did not know that. Anyone want to come sea kittening tomorrow? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Seth 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I think that the organisation PETA really has done themselves no favours, when I saw the "your daddy's a killer" flyer I thought PETA has basicly told any level headded individual that the PETA organisation is directed by psychos.Sad really because I do believe animal rights organisations force places like Indonesian abbotiors, unscrupulous piggeries and batteries to make poultry, pork and beef industries better for all people. But this stunt that targets my children has obviously not been thought out with any intelect and probably not the means of animal liberation that most intelligent animal lovers chose.Like in any segment of society, there are radicals that just stuff it up for the majority.Seth. red_devil94 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
urhookedfish 12 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 WOW their smoking some seriously good stuff at PETA these days! :S :S :pinch: :vomit: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rickster 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 WOW their smoking some seriously good stuff at PETA these days! :S :S :pinch: :vomit:More like what their using in their naturally organic cakes and cookies. :evil: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger 48 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Instead of seeing all the other species on Earth as ours to convert into hamburgers' date=' handbags, [b']living burglar alarms[/b], amusements, test tubes with whiskers, and so on, we need to respect them as fellow beings, as other individuals and families and tribes who have the same basic interests in experiencing joy and love and living without needless pain and harassment as we do.Hey, speaking of kids, I've seen them!I don't respect them as fellow beings because they take away the joy and love of living while causing needless pain and harassment to parents.I'd like to call them land puppies! When does open season start? :evil: Fishie 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
afishyfish 4 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Sea kittensAmong PETA's more ridiculous campaigns has been their decision that fish should now be known as "sea kittens". Apparently having a cute and silly name is enough to stop global overfishing in its tracks.I did not know that. Anyone want to come sea kittening tomorrow?Here's a Japanese Sea Kitten For Them . Not quite so fluffy tho http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=southern+right+whale&hl=en&sa=X&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4GGHP_enAU464AU464&biw=1920&bih=878&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=pzXtU8M-AXOJKM:&imgrefurl=http://manlybiketours.com.au/whale-watching/&docid=9W6cfgPj91ucqM&imgurl=http://manlybiketours.com.au/wp-content/gallery/trial/southern-right-whale.jpg&w=640&h=427&ei=Fq0PT5DJA6iUiQfqy9XiDg&zoom=1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Astroman 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Sounds sexist to me, what about all those women who go out fishing?Load of carp if you ask me..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wahoo 146 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I've often thought the whole lot of them should go swimming at dawn/dusk with the great white sea kittens Ugly4Life and urhookedfish 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
afishyfish 4 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I've often thought the whole lot of them should go swimming at dawn/dusk with the great white sea kittens Im happy to introduce them to a couple of very playful ones that I know of :evil: Im sure they would keep them entertained for maybe a minute or two at most :dry: :whistle: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boyington214 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 You'd give em a minute or two AFF? Wow, you must be feeling super generous today! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
archerfish 685 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Gold, Ranger... :cheer: :cheer: What rig would you suggest?! :woohoo: af Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kingsley 19 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I'd give them more than a minute....search on google images for "PETA demonstrations" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
afishyfish 4 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 You'd give em a minute or two AFF?Thats all it should take :evil: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ShoreJigger 171 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 HEYYYY!! PETA! LEAVE OUR KIDS ALONE!!!!!!That's how the song goes right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
breambo25 1 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Absolute rubbish.Makes my blood boil reading that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn2fish 4,612 Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 I was able to shrink the file size down of the PDF sent to me by Tacklebags. The file is attached for those interested.The Neurobehavioral Nature of Fishes and the Question of Awareness and Pain - Dr. James D. RoseFISHPAINsml.pdf kon and Tacklebags 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tacklebags 404 Posted January 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 However, the brain level of most importance for the conscious awareness of pain in humans, an extensive frontal and parietal lobe neocortex, is completely absent in fishes. The cerebral hemispheres of fishes have only a more simple type of cortex that lacks the structural complexity, massive interconnectivity, and spatial extent of neocortex, the cortex necessary for pain experience. There is no alternate neural system that could provide another, functionally comparable, mechanism for pain experience in fishes. The same conclusion applies to emotions such as fear. The neural structures known to be important for conscious emotional experiences, which include extensive neocortical regions such as those involved in pain, are not present in fishes, aside from very rudimentary homologues, which could not mediate conscious emotional experiences.Bet you will not hear PETA, TWS or PEW quoting this harsh reality?Not big on the facts these greenies....TB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lewishamlad 9 Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 "What a load of clap trap"Haven't these morons got anything better to do with their time. "Get a life , better still Get a blood job" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pikk0n 2 Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Interesting study on the fish but I wish their brain wouldn't allow them to be spooked by my lures. HAHA! The more I c&r a spot, the less fish I get... bjorn2fish 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger 48 Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Bet you will not hear PETA' date=' TWS or PEW quoting this harsh reality?Not big on the facts these greenies....[/quote']I am not standing up or condoning PETA, but I do try to be fair, do my own research, and also weigh up things logically.In all fairness, nothing has been proven conclusively, and Dr Rose's findings are NOT a harsh reality........YET!In the same manner that you quote Dr Rose's findings, PETA will also quote Dr Sneddon's findings, who believes fish DO feel pain.If you do a search through the site you will find that I have posted extensively here on the issue of fish and pain over the years (even quoting Dr Rose, Dr Sneddon and others myself). Even amongst all the experts, the jury is still out, with camps split both for and against on this subject.Do your own research on the issue, and you will see the different opinions, all from equally qualified experts in their field.It began with a british researcher (Dr Lynne Sneddon) who injected bee venom into the lips of trout. She found the trout to begin rubbing their lips in response to the irritant, and concluded that this response indicates fish can feel pain.Dr Nordgren a Swedish researcher also agreed with these findings after completing her own research.Dr Rose of Wyoming university however disagreed, and showed that fish do not have the required nociceptors to feel pain, but are merely exhibiting a response to an irritant and external stimuli.Since then many other researchers have waded into the arguement.Our own Dr Karl Kruzelniski who is seen regularly on television believes fish CAN feel pain.Remember, these people are all highly qualified researchers, lecturers, professors and doctors, and classed as world experts and leaders in their field.We all know that fish DO respond to external stimuli, that is proven beyond doubt. Whether or not that is actually "pain" has not yet been determined, and until the experts come to agreement, we are all left to speculate, argue and draw our own conclusions.Even with my own postings here on the issue, I found that the majority of our own site members who responded to the post DO believe that fish can feel pain, even if their views may be somewhat misguided through their own human perception of pain and lack of knowledge on the subject.Have a look at what the Australian Museum has to say on the subject: http://australianmuseum.net.au/Do-Fishes-Feel-PainThe question of whether fishes feel pain can elicit very emotional responses from some people. Looking at a hooked fish or a fish asphyxiating in a drying stream, one cannot help but attribute human feelings of pain and suffering to the fish. But do fishes really feel pain?The jury is still out! Different researchers have come to different conclusions.A team of researchers led by Dr Lynne Sneddon in Scotland have concluded that fishes do feel pain.This conclusion was based on work with Rainbow Trout. There are receptors in the brains of Rainbow Trout that appear to be virtually identical to those responsible for the detection of pain in humans. The injection of bee venom and acid into the lips of Rainbow Trout resulted in the transmission of a nervous response and modification of the behaviour of the fish. In some cases abnormal behaviour resulted after injury. After the administration of the pain killer, morphine, the fish’s behaviour returned to ‘normal’.In her 2010 book 'Do Fish Feel Pain?', Victoria Braithwaite argues that fishes are more intelligent than previously thought and have structures in the brain that allow them to feel pain. The book raises serious questions about the treatment of fishes. Interestingly she states that the trigeminal nerve contains both fast and slow firing nerve fibres (those responsible for reflexes and pain) but the percentage of 'pain fibres' is significantly lower in the test fish (a trout) than in mammals and birds.Dr J. Rose of the University of Wyoming on the other hand states that the perception of pain and fear in fishes is very different from that of humans.He argues that it is important to first distinguish between pain and the reception of noxious (harmful) stimuli (nociception). Without doubt both fishes and humans respond to noxious stimuli. A fish that has been hooked is obviously responding to a stimulus. Likewise, if you burn yourself, you will very quickly respond to the stimulus, however this response occurs before you feel any pain. Nociception is controlled by the spinal cord and brainstem.Rose states that the difference in the perception of pain and fear in fishes and humans results from differences in brain structure. The human brain has a massively developed cerebral cortex (the grey folded outer layer). Pain and fear in humans results from the stimulation of several regions of the cerebral cortex. Rose states that the tiny cerebral cortex of fish brains lack these regions. The lack of the comparable regions of the brain is one of the arguments that Rose uses to conclude that fishes do not experience pain and fear.Most of the "everyday behaviour" of a fish is controlled by the brainstem and spinal cord. Experiments in which the cerebral hemispheres of fishes were removed have shown that even without these parts of the brain, fishes can maintain normal function and behaviour. Interestingly a human with complete destruction of the cerebral cortex will still respond to noxious stimuli, but feels no pain.Whether fishes do or do not feel pain as we know, they most definitely suffer from stress. Rose states that they "display robust nonconscious, neuroendocrine and physiological stress response to noxious stimuli".In short, if you need to touch a fish, you should remember that the fish may (or may not) experience pain the way you do, but it undoubtedly does suffer from stress. Professional ichthyologists follow stringent guidelines to reduce stress when handling fishes.My own "PERSONAL" view is that although fish respond to external stimuli, they are not equipped with the required anatomical structures to feel pain in the manner that we know it. Having said that, remember that I am uneducated on the matter, so am merely basing my own conclussions on what I have read (and I have read extensively on the subject). YOUR opinion may be far different, and at this point in time, neither of us can be considered wrong!I also believe this disagreement and research is a reason why fish are exempt from the prevention of cruelty to animal act. ie: How can you be cruel to something which doesn't feel pain? Regardless, just knowing that fish respond to stressors in the environment is enough to ensure that we should treat them humanely, handle them with care, and use ETHICAL treatment with all of our captures.........remember, one day it may still be proven that they DO feel pain!Many papers from both camps have been published on the subject. Here's some reading for anyone interested:Barker, D., Allan, GL, Rowland, S.J. & Pickles, J.M. 2002. A Guide to Acceptable Procedures and Practices for Aquaculture and Fish Research. NSW Fisheries. Pp. 52. ISBN 0 7310 9423 9. Braithewaite, V. 2010. Do Fish Feel Pain? Oxford University Press. Pp 256. Chandroo, K.P., Yue, S. & R.D. Moccia. 2004. An evaluation of current perspectives on consciousness and pain in fishes. Fish and Fisheries. 5: 281-295. Huntingford, F.A., Adams, C., Braithwaite, V.A., Kadri, S., Pottinger, T.G., Sandoe, P. & J.F. Turnbull. 2006. Current issues in fish welfare. Journal of Fish Biology. 68: 332-372. Jackson, C. 2003. Laboratory Fish: Impacts of Pain and Stress on Well-being. Contemporary Topics. 42 (3): 62-73. Oidtmann, B. & R.W. Hoffmann. 2001. Schmerzen und Leiden bei Fischen (Pain and suffering in fish). Berl. Münch. Tierärztl. Wschr. 114: 277-282. Randerson, J. 2003 Does a hook hurt a fish? The evidence is reeling in. New Scientist May: 15. Rose, J.D. 2002. The Neurobehavioral Nature of Fishes and the Question of Awareness and Pain. Reviews in Fisheries Science. 10(1): 1-38. Sneddon, L.U. 2006. Ethics and welfare: Pain perception in fish. Bulletin of European Association of Fish Pathologists. 26(1): 7-11. Sneddon, L.U., Braithwaite, V.A. & M.J. Gentle. Do fishes have nociceptors? Evidence for the evolution of a vertebrate sensory system. Procedings of the Royal Society of London. Series B-Biological Sciences. 270 (1520): 1115-1121. reelin 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger 48 Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Further, I have just found something I posted on this website quite some time ago: Do Fish Feel Pain:One camp says no:Anglers rest easy. Fish cannot feel pain, the largest study into piscine neurology has concluded. An academic study comparing the nervous systems and responses of fish and mammals has found that fishes' brains are not sufficiently developed to allow them to sense pain or fear. The study is the work of James D Rose, a professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wyoming, who has been working on questions of neurology for almost 30 years. He has examined data on the responses of animals to pain and stimulus from scores of studies collected over the past 15 years. His report, published in the American journal Reviews of Fisheries Science has concluded that awareness of pain depends on functions of specific regions of the cerebral cortex which fish do not possess. Professor Rose, 60, said that previous studies which had indicated that fish can feel pain had confused nociception - responding to a threatening stimulus - with feeling pain. "Pain is predicated on awareness," he said. "The key issue is the distinction between nociception and pain. A person who is anaesthetised in an operating theatre will still respond physically to an external stimulus, but he or she will not feel pain. Anyone who has seen a chicken with its head cut off will know that, while its body can respond to stimuli, it cannot be feeling pain." Professor Rose said he was enormously concerned with the welfare of fish, but that campaigners should concentrate on ensuring that they were able to enjoy clean and well-managed rivers and seas. Despite the findings of Professor Rose's study, a spokesman for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, which has invested heavily in an anti-angling campaign, said: "We believe that fishing is barbaric. Of course animals can feel pain. They have sensitivity, if only to avoid predators."One camp says yes:In her dissertation, Nordgreen studied the response to potentially painful stimuli in groups of cells and at the individual. As consciousness is essential to feel pain, Nordgreen tested as well whether fish can be taught to solve a task as in humans requires conscious attention. The research on pain and nociception (physiological detection of stimuli that can cause tissue damage) in fish is important primarily because pain is a serious threat to animal welfare. In addition, the research may increase our understanding of the evolution of consciousness and the nociceptive system. In her project, Nordgreen used Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar), goldfish (Carassius auratus) and rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss). Her research showed that noxious galvanic stimulation elicited activity in the Atlantic salmon telecephalon, and that the response was graded with stimulus intensity. In another experiment, the goldfish showed escape responses when the temperature exceeded 38 degrees C, which is within the temperature range that is deadly to goldfish. This suggests that the ability to respond to harmful point heat is a conserved feature among vertebrates. The third experiment mapped the metabolism of morphine in Atlantic salmon and goldfish. It was found that they metabolize and secrete morphine more slowly than humans, and that the morphine in small extent reaches the brain of the fish. It was shown that the elimination half life of morphine was approximately one order of magnitude higher than in humans for both species. The last experiment showed that rainbow trout could learn by trace classical condition. By using reinforcer devaluation, it was also found that the underlying association was most likely of a stimulus-stimulus nature. No single experiment can unequivocally answer the question of whether fish can feel pain, but the current findings, seen in the context of existing literature strongly indicates that fish are not only capable of nociception but also of conscious perception of pain. Janicke Nordgreen defended her PhD-thesis, entitled "Nociception and pain in teleost fish," at the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science on October 28, 2009.Both renowned leaders in their field and respected academics with completely opposing theses on the matter! I guess this could be a reason as to why fish are classed as an EXEMPT species under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals act! That's right, only fish and humans are exempt from the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act...........look it up for yourself! Now as mere and lowly uneducated fishermen, do we believe: a) Professor of Zooogy and Physiology James D Rose the University of Wyoming and the American journal Reviews of Fisheries Science? Dr Janicke Nordgreen PhD and the publication Science Daily? or do we just: c) follow the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals exemption and appropriate fisheries legislation in this country?As mentioned previously, in response to this post when questioned on the subject, I found the majority of our responding site members believed that fish DO feel pain. Are they correct or wrong..........I dunno, we all need to make our own minds up on that one! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pussy_Willow 0 Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Of course fish feel pain! They are a vertebrate species with a spinal chord, nerve endings and respond to stimuli and all that. I think the initial study mentioned is saying that fish brains aren't developed enough to experience the emotional stress and trauma that higher animals like mammals (including us)experience when we are hurt.Oh yeah and that "Daddy kills" leaflet has been around for a long time. I had a really good laugh when I first read it! Tacklebags 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tacklebags 404 Posted January 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Of course fish feel pain! They are a vertebrate species with a spinal chord' date=' nerve endings and respond to stimuli and all that. I think the initial study mentioned is saying that fish brains aren't developed enough to experience the emotional stress and trauma that higher animals like mammals (including us)experience when we are hurt.quote']EXACTLY!!!!!!Whether they feel pain is obvious.....TB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger 48 Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Of course fish feel pain! They are a vertebrate species with a spinal chord' date=' nerve endings and respond to stimuli and all that. [/quote']When you read the report fully, it suggests that a lot more is involved than just a vertebrae, spinal column, etc. It suggests that mammals and fish evolved differently,and that fish actually lack some of the crucial anatomical structures required in the pain mechanism. ie: neural cortex, brain stem, nociceptors, etc.I guess it's much the same as the way fish have evolved some structures which we mammals lack, ie: the ability to pick up on electrical impulses through their lateral line transmitted to their brain (something our brains and structures are incapable of), maybe taking things even further, development of a whole new anatomical structure like a swim bladder to regulate their weight, etc.Mammals and fish are very different in anatomy, we have things they lack, they have things we lack, and the presence of a brain in itself does not create a common association, especially when both brains are far different in structure.This can be very difficult for us to understand, as living a life filled with pain, we have trouble understanding how anything could be different, and that is why the explanation of "ANTHROPOCENTRISM" is also included, because we think like humans, and some animals are completely different, and not really like us at all.Without wanting to sound condescending or offensive, I believe your obvious "of course they feel pain as they have a brain, spinal column and nerve endings" stems from the difficulty we as humans can have understanding mechanisms far different to our own, even though those mechanisms may have similar characteristics or the presence of some similar structures.When world experts who have spent a lifetime studying this cant work it out, how can we simply say "of course they feel pain" because in some ways they are like us?No-one ever thinks twice about stepping on a cockroach...........but what would happen if a study of their anatomy was to reveal that they too feel pain? After all, even a cockroach responds to external stimuli the same way that humans and fish do. Hold a flame in front of one, and you'll soon see it back off in a hurry! Is that pain too, or merely a response mechanism? They dont even have brains, spinal columns or nerve endings as we know them.......all things which are supposedly anatomical requirements to even feel pain. Having said all this, I don't know if you are right or wrong, you don't know if I'm right or wrong, and if world leading experts cant work it out, what hope do I have! Research into many animals still has a long way to go. Look at how smart Dolphins have proven, look at how a monkey or an otter can work out how to use a tool (something formerly understood that only humans with our highly evolved, structured and enlarged brain could do), etc, etc. If a fish feels pain, why does it pull and fight against a hook? Logically it would then also turn and follow the hook in an effort to minimise that pain, the same way a human would. Does it feel pain but is too dumb to recognise it as pain? Does it NOT feel pain and merely respond to external stimuli the way a cockroach without a brain would?We still have a lot to learn! Wahoo, kon and reelin 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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