Ranger 48 Posted August 6, 2010 Report Share Posted August 6, 2010 jagger wrote:Interesting that it's only SA.. behing the 8ball againLol, it's not only South Australia. It's just that in some other states it's done slightly differently!In some states fish ARE included under the term animals, but then "recreational fishing" is classed as an exempt activity! Same deal, different wording! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuckemback 0 Posted August 6, 2010 Report Share Posted August 6, 2010 Ahh see Ranger dentin wich is found in teeth is way more like bone rather than rubbery cartlage.yes and i did do my little search as well and found that circle hooks are probably better to use for survival rate purposes.ps ...ive never mutilated an animal or creature unless i intend on eating or using it as bait.thanks Ranger and everyone 4 your inputsoh and also the barb doesnt have to go in you to cause you harm.just one swipe, and the black slime on the barb is infact its poison. (you better not tell me otherwise ) or il give up 4 sure! there will be lots of rays this coming summer i believe.hmmm have landed kite surfers and wind surfers on 6/0s last summer.yet to hook a jetski though....probably happen this summer! thanks to you probably Ranger i already have hooked a yacht of the screwpile at victor,on a 9/0 and a 300foot customs boat on a 12/0 of kingscote jetty....boy did they stop quickly and guide my trace around their bow early one morning, i thought i had the shark of my life only to see this ship like boat :ohmy: jetski on a 12/0 they dont have a prop do they ?might be more of a closeline job! why dont you like jetskis Ranger? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WilliamPerry 0 Posted August 6, 2010 Report Share Posted August 6, 2010 I love ray fishing as well,and I have a few barbs in my collection as well.These barbs have come from rays that I have caught to use for bait later,although 1 came from a dead ray I found on the beach one time.Might have been some-ones catch and release effort,not sure though. :ohmy: Anyway,summers on the way,and I'll be shooting for them as well,so that's that;but no more barbs for me, unless "un-avoidable" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger 48 Posted August 6, 2010 Report Share Posted August 6, 2010 chuckemback wrote:why dont you like jetskis Ranger?Ask the knob who nearly hit my boat while I was in the Barker Inlet channel at low tide! :angry:No prop on a jetski, and they fight hard on 50lb line! I'd opt for a forged livebaiting hook and wire trace too, just in case! Jetskiers are also exempt from the prevention of cruelty to animals act! Remember, "people" and fish are exempt! ps: Plenty of eagle rays around that neck of the woods if ya wanna play with them. I actually paddled directly over one in my kayak in about one foot of water. The water all around me boiled and I nearly sh*t myself! :blush:Just as another option, if ya do ever wanna kill a ray. Cut off the flaps, score them diagonally on both sides with a sharp knife, and chuck em on the barbeque. Peel the skin off and serve with sambal chili sauce! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuckemback 0 Posted August 6, 2010 Report Share Posted August 6, 2010 ok thanks Ranger 4 the eagly spot but that is not realy my go to spot....,i find the noise of a jetski anoying when im on a metro beach. if i catch one ill photo him 4 ya ok ...maybe throw darts at the pic :laugh:not keen on eating them Ranger but i have gone halves on a ray with my uncle ...he likes the ones under 50lb for food ...but i will only catchem and he can do the killing, so he has to come or he only gets a story . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jagger 24 Posted August 6, 2010 Report Share Posted August 6, 2010 I remember about 10 years ago I was on patrol in the rubber duck during a carnival out from Glenelg and was asked to move an eagle ray on before an event... man those things can move !! We chased it back and forwards in crystal clear water only about 6ft deep and they surprised the hell out of me how quickly they can take off, change direction etc... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuckemback 0 Posted August 6, 2010 Report Share Posted August 6, 2010 oh yea jagger the big ones give your rod, reel,line, knots, back, a real test ..fastest swiming fish in our waters landbased . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
twinpower 151 Posted August 6, 2010 Report Share Posted August 6, 2010 how you going guys too be honest i dont want to get into depth over the subject because i think this is one of those subjects that is everyone has a different opinion and there will never be a right and a wrong answer its each to there own. there are both great arguments on both sides but i think that if you are going to say it is animal crulety so should live baiting be called animal crulety because no matter the size of the animal it is still crule. its just like saying (kicking a bigger dog is less humane then kicking a little dog)even know its a different species i do realise none the less its still an animal fish whatever. i dont like to call it animal crulety because i do use live baits and i have taken a few stingray barbs but as everyone is aware there is a thing called a food chain that we rely on to tell us wat to eat and wat not haha any way if we use lil fish to catch big fish to take to eat thats apart of the chain. and if i take off a barb and it is defenseless and a shark eats it that is apart of the food chain... and now to the thing about taking fish for food and if u dont want to take the fish let it go unharmed. well i love fishing entirely for photos. so i release most of my catches and i release rays of course so if that ray dies it is going to be eaten so its really back to the food chain and im sure that fisherman arnt going to take every ray barb they come across. sorry if i said food chain 1000000 times and if none of that made sense and if my spelling is crap haha cheers tp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barnett 0 Posted August 6, 2010 Report Share Posted August 6, 2010 Try cutting one of your fingers with a knife or cutters.That would not hurt much now would it.If your not eating it put it back unharmed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spog777 1 Posted August 6, 2010 Report Share Posted August 6, 2010 Oh those barbs cause a hell of a lot of damage when in slash mode. Ive got a 4" scar on my calf muscle to prove it. Copped it when a lad fishing semmy jetty. Bled like buggery and yes it infected nicely. Took weeks to heal and was bloody painful. The upside is i got a great story to tell when someone asks about either the scar or stingies lol. Also got a nice set of shark bite scars on my foot from a bronzie. Showing off when a kid in front of the girls i kicked one i caught about 14 hours earlier and my foot went into its mouth and the bastard clamped down-ouch. here stands a handy warning - shark bite reflex is still very active even hours after death so take care Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spartan 0 Posted August 7, 2010 Report Share Posted August 7, 2010 cow pat hit the fan with this thread IMHO i do not keep barbs anymore last count got about 85 of them 86th got stuck in the back of my hand and hurt like hell the eaglys revenge . Got the hint but same with smoothy barbs got a few of them. Now if i hook a smoothy i cut my line and run the other way donot want to get stabbed by a sword. When i was young ( a very long time ago) used to cut doggy spines to make neckless . Anyway going off to watch a few guys kick, punch ,grapple, elbow the crap out of each other in UFC countdown on the box before they make this illegal . cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
voogoofish 1 Posted August 8, 2010 Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 I've been stung 4 years ago... through my waders... under my little toe... worst pain ever. ended up in hospital... (the venom caused seizures) then discovered a brain tumor in my precautionary scans to get my license back. it was slowly growing and would have been worse if it wasn't for that ray. tumor was low grade cancer, operation/radiotherapy etc etc... but that's another story.long story short, I've released countless rays off many beaches... and you DON'T need to harm them IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
afishyfish 4 Posted August 8, 2010 Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 cweed wrote:Hey guys just been on Point Turton jetty and saw a bloke hook a 4-5 foot eagle ray.Battled with it for about 30mins then tried three times hoiking it up the jetty. He then decided to walk it to the shallows which he did easily because the ray was spent after getting dropped three times from about half way up the jetty. He then pulled it onto a rock and proceeded to cut its barb off. He then just pushed it back in the water where it just sank to the bottom.So my questions are, Is this legal and just the done thing?Does this harm the ray and maybe kill it?And why bother doing this if you arent going to eat it instead of just getting back as much line as possible and then cutting it off?It didnt impress me at all, infact got me quite angry, but didnt want to say anything incase this is just an acceptable thing to do Seen this done before Cweed, and never liked or understood the practice in my opinion, why harm an animal for no real gain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerG 1 Posted August 8, 2010 Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 how bout after ive gaffed a ray and landed it on a jetty taken a few photos and released it again after debarbing it they still swim away nicely.in your opinions is this wrong?How about I gaff you in the guts and then rip off your fingernails? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerG 1 Posted August 8, 2010 Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 There is a Federal law against mutilating sharks and rays and releasing them alive. It was introduced a couple of years ago to prevent people (Especially Indonesians)From collecting shark fins and releasing the fish alive to die slowly. The same applies to all fish species and SA is NOT exempt.Don,t chop off fishes tails etc. then let them go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
projoe 261 Posted August 8, 2010 Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 A practice i've see quite often by fisho,s (both boat & shore based)getting intolarant of undersize fish daring to get caught on there lines is once they have roughly removed them the hook they then proceed to give the poor little blighter a flying lesson i'm sure this does these fish harm!!!!!!!!!!!!! & i'm sure these people would be the first to complain when there favorite species is not abundant enough to catch at a legal size. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jagger 24 Posted August 8, 2010 Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 RogerG wrote:There is a Federal law against mutilating sharks and rays and releasing them alive. It was introduced a couple of years ago to prevent people (Especially Indonesians)From collecting shark fins and releasing the fish alive to die slowly. The same applies to all fish species and SA is NOT exempt.Don,t chop off fishes tails etc. then let them go.Roger thaat's good new for a fighting friends !!Do you have a reference so the Site and hopefully State can be further educated. If it's made puclic notice instead of tucked away in some by-law style publication hopefully people will sit up and take notice instead of having the "don't care" attitude.I know one thing, if it's Federal Law I won't be afraid to call the cops instead of fisheries next time I see it happen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger 48 Posted August 8, 2010 Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 RogerG wrote:There is a Federal law against mutilating sharks and rays and releasing them alive. It was introduced a couple of years ago to prevent people (Especially Indonesians)From collecting shark fins and releasing the fish alive to die slowly. The same applies to all fish species and SA is NOT exempt.I know there are laws against mutilating your catch at sea, but that is merely for identification and sizing. I too would like to hear more on this one, and a reference if available. Maybe PIRSA could help us out with finding it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jagger 24 Posted August 8, 2010 Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Good thinking ! Surprised the "question" wasn't asked of them earlier instead of all this back - forth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
savage480 1 Posted August 9, 2010 Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 Note the response from PIRSA on this topic.It is not an offence to debarb a Ray and release it.Interesting that they "can" grow back.I personally still do not like the practise, but each to their own I suppose. Though it is acts like these in the view of the non - fishing public that does not help the image of the average fisho. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger 48 Posted August 9, 2010 Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 PIRSA's reply: There is a Commonwealth (Federal) Law in regards to the removal of fins from sharks, however this applies to Commonwealth Licensed commercial fisherman, fishing in commonwealth waters only, (being 3nm - 200nm from shore in SA). The regulations are located as part of the Southern and Eastern Scalefish and Shark Fishery 2010 Management Arrangements and not adhering to them is a breach of the fisherman's licence condition. (This is not really an issue with Commonwealth Licensed fishers who fish in SA, as the sharks caught here are also valuable for their meat and so are always brought in whole. It is more relevant to Commonwealth fishers in tropical waters, where shark meat has little value.)As far as state law, under the Fisheries Management Act 2007, which applies to both state licensed commercial and recreational fishers, the only law we have is in regards to mutilation of fish at sea. This covers all sharks, not rays, as well as those fish that have a minimum size limit. The law, in relation to shark means to divide, cut up, mangle or dismember them in any way but does not include the removal of pelvic fins and claspers or the removal of the tail at the sub-terminal notch, leaving the caudal lobe attached to the body. The removing of the dorsal fins is not permitted.This only applies to sharks caught from a boat and prohibits mutilation before they are brought ashore or landed.Cheers,Troy HarrisFisheries Officer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuckemback 0 Posted August 10, 2010 Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Good! im glad cozz people that see you catch 1 ..realy buzz out touching rays and having a good close but quick looky at thems , even kids ,plenty them around they luv it when ya land them. Dont worry guys i dont cut all there barbs off , many are releasd with them on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuckemback 0 Posted August 10, 2010 Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Roger you should take back some of that stuff u said aye?looks like i am within my rights too! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jagger 24 Posted August 10, 2010 Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 It does seem that you are within your rights legally but morally ??Bet you look over your shoulder before you do it again !Would you raise your children to perform these same actions and what would you say when they ask you why you do it ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuckemback 0 Posted August 10, 2010 Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 yes jagger ...one of my sons does like fishing a little bit and wants to catch an eagly this summer.he will be taught how to handle a ray and how to deal with them .im sure he will want a picture of him holding one up if its not too big.so do u think we should cut the barb of maybe ? i am resposible! and theres no need for me to look over my shoulder ....that could turn to a disaster ... like i said b4 its pretty hard to release 50 or 60 kg of ray with the barb still in tact safely.i am deffinetly not into killing rays and seldom keeping them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jagger 24 Posted August 10, 2010 Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Hope he gets a big one mate, I'm all for the photo/release, good on you for at least chuckenback :PYeah, will never understand the trophy aspect of it though and like others have stated, if you can't handle it cut the line not the barb. I have never had to harm them to release them.Do I think you should cut it off..... no, but that's my moral standing. I don't harm anything or anyone unleass I'm put in a position where I have no choice but to.Someone made a good point on here... even if they swim away strong after removal of the barb, infection can cause death anyway let alone not being able to defencd themselves. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarsOne 137 Posted August 11, 2010 Report Share Posted August 11, 2010 Would've hoped the idea of keeping barbs would be well and truly passed by now.. :dry: Best and only way IMHO to release a ray is to cut him off. No way he can damage you, and the ray will swim off A-OK, with the hooks rusting out not long after release. If you can afford to go fishing, you can afford to retie a hook. Surely the only real way of doing it if you're not keeping it for food/bait Again, its a moral thing.... Do you personally feel compassion for another living thing? We're at the top of the food chain -if you're going to kill it for a reason, fine, but there's no point in torturing the things. Tho some do enjoy such things... :whistle: :whistle: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuckemback 0 Posted August 11, 2010 Report Share Posted August 11, 2010 IMHO if you havnt touched it its not caught.thanks jagger i to hope he gets 1 this summer with dad,he has done good in the past with a 4 ft bronzie 2 summers ago when he was 11 in amongst 7 doggies, i only caught 1 doggy that day too!last year was slim pickings the times he came and was a bit boring ,not liking it as much.probably fish the beach more as its more peacfull there and easier on the rays. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
southslide 0 Posted August 11, 2010 Report Share Posted August 11, 2010 i seen a ray on tuesday morn that allmost messed up a dolphin in the port, had my ray rod out next thing i see my uncle with a "WTF!!" look on his face turned around and seen an eaglie flying through the air and SPLASH landed REALY close to me then see the ray start fliping out swinging its tail like crazy as this dolphin was "i think trying to eat it" probly wouldof been screwed if it didnt have its tail! the look on my uncles face was priceless as he's never seen a ray other than my photo's and to see it luanch outa the water the way it did. he was stoked to see it.and if the dolphin wasnt tryin to get a feed is it possible that he knew the ray was gunna freak just for fun? i seent them doin some random stuff haha smart animals Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerG 1 Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 Roger you should take back some of that stuff u said aye?looks like i am within my rights too!"The National Animal Welfare Act 2005" Prohibits cruel and inhumane mutilation of live animals."animal is any of the following:8 (a) a live member of a vertebrate animal taxon;"This includes fish. Don't cut off their tails unless they are dead. RogerG Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger 48 Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 RogerG wrote:"The National Animal Welfare Act 2005" Prohibits cruel and inhumane mutilation of live animals."animal is any of the following:8 (a) a live member of a vertebrate animal taxon;"Roger, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this act (also referred to as national animal welfare bill 2005) only cover animals used for scientific purposes? National Animal Welfare Bill 2005 No. , 2005 This Act may be cited as the National Animal Welfare Act 2005. .. National Animal Welfare Bill 2005No. , 2005(Senator Bartlett)A Bill for an Act to promote humane, responsibleand accountable care, protection and use ofdomestic animals, livestock, wildlife and animalskept for scientific purposes, and the standardsrequired to achieve this end, and for relatedpurposesI think when it comes to humane treatment of animals we are still covered under individual state legislations, and the one which applies to us here in SA is the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act, 1985, of which fish are still an exempt species. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WilliamPerry 0 Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 It all seems to be a bit "legal" now. :ohmy: I'm of the opinion,that it should be "ethical" and people will have to agree to disagree on this one.My 2 cents worth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Blake 9 Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 This is a really fascinating topic. It amazes me how some of those sharing their opinions switch between the legal and moral arguments. It also amazes me how the laws seem to have countered some parts of the moral question and not others. I don't fish for rays- I have caught them as a by-catch and have always released them. I didn't even know that people 'de-barb' them as trophies, though it doesn't surprise me. I release them unharmed because I know other people value them. I don't release puffa fish and shitties and I have often released Port Jackson sharks after 'spiking' (not trying to soften my case- I kill them because I don't like catching the same one again and again all night). I would be really sceptical of any fisho who told me they abhor 'de-barbing' and have never killed a shitty/puffa. I just wouldn't believe them.Morality isn't something you apply in some cases and not in others- in fact, that is the definition of morality- a set of principles that you lead your life by no matter the circumstance. If you truly want to be a moral fisho, only fish when you truly need food, be less fussy about what you take (if it's just for food take the first fish you land and go home), never kill another shitty/puffa, use 50lb line to shorten the fight etc etc etc.Otherwise, you really have to question whether this is a moral issue or just preference. I wouldn't hunt a dolphin with a bow because I like dolphins more than I like puffas etc but I still can't see a truly logical reason why what I do is any more moral...As for taking the barb off a ray (just to throw fuel on the fire...), would it be more moral if the fisher killed the ray quickly, took the barb, and returned the dead ray to be consumed by other species? Fisho gets their sport, ray is killed humanely, no wastage... I just very much doubt that any person who has indignantly pronounced how immoral 'de-barbing' is, has not been guilty of some other moral crime by their own standards... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerG 1 Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 RangerYou have, obviously, only read the brief description of the Bill.It means "As well as" Animals used for scientifc purposes. NOT "only for"3 Purposes of Act12 The purposes of this Act are to do the following:13 (a) promote the responsible care and use of animals;14 ( provide standards for the care and use of animals that:15 (i) where it is deemed necessary to capture and kill wildlife,16 only those devices and techniques should be used which17 do not inflict unnecessary cruelty, harm non-target18 animals or damage natural habitat;19 (ii) prohibit the capture and killing of wild animals for20 the purpose of entertainment or sport;21 (iii) ensure that, in the implementation of the matters22 contained in paragraphs (i) and (ii), all necessary23 measures shall be taken to protect habitat and24 ecosystems;25 © protect animals from unjustifiable, unnecessary or26 unreasonable pain;27 (d) ensure the use of animals for scientific purposes is28 accountable, open and responsible.29 4This bill has been greatly fragmented, with some parts passed, such as the docking of dogs ears and tails. And some parts not yet passed such as the mulesing of sheep. However the maiming of live animals for amusement or sport is not only illegal but cruel and immoral. It also carries heavy fines if you are caught.RogerG Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mark1396235444 0 Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 I for one have never debarbed a ray only catch and release for me.But i have used live bait which means a large hook through a live fish ,does this make me a law braker ?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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